[BL] Help for a newbie

[Greg Mayman]

I have downloaded BL3.40, hard disk version and installed it.

Starting from a clean boot, I managed to find my way around some of the
things with a little help from my friends.

Eventually, I did a pppsetup, then ppp-on and it connected to my
ISP!

I typed links and started to browse.

[C. Brouerius van Nidek]

On Thursday 21 December 2006 14:27, Greg Mayman wrote:
> I have downloaded BL3.40, hard disk version and installed it.
>
>
> Is it true that BasicLinux does work, or is it just another urban
> myth?
>
Dear Greg,
It does work but as with Arachne you need some time to fine tune your setup
and to get everything working properly. As an alternative to Dos and Arachne
it has it advantages in some cases and I would suggest that you keep starting
up BL3.40 now and than and ask your questions on the list. It is my
experience that you may expect valuable help.
--
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7:20pm up 2:37, 2 users, load average: 0.91, 0.72, 0.62

[sindi keesan]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006, Greg Mayman wrote:

> I have downloaded BL3.40, hard disk version and installed it.
>
> Starting from a clean boot, I managed to find my way around some of the
> things with a little help from my friends.
>
> Eventually, I did a pppsetup, then ppp-on and it connected to my
> ISP!

I am very impressed that you got this working on the first try.

>
> But abiword gave a "zcat: unexpected end of file" error.

Sounds like your file got truncated during download, or corrupted.

> And sc and xfreecell gave "tar: invalid tar magic" error.

Compare md5sums with those at the BL site. Or even file sizes, since you
probably ran out of space.

> Links2 and sylpheed appeared to install properly but give
> "floating point error" when I try to run them.

Did you first type Xsetup and choose resolution and color depth and then
run X (startx)? The programs both need X. What did you type just before
the error message?

> "gunzip greenfield96Linux.ps.gz" tells me there is no space left
> on drive.
>
> That's crap! There is over 300 Mb of free space on the HDD.

If you installed the 20MB loop hard disk version, that is all the space
you get to work in, which won't hold all the above. Make a separate
partition for linux. Ask us how.

> Now, after booting, ppp-on will not work.
>
> The error message is
> /usr/sbin/pppd: This system lacks kernel support for PPP. This
> could be because the PPP kernel is not loaded, or because the
> kernel is not configured for PPP. See the README.linux file in
> ppp-2.3.7 distribution.
>
> But by running pppsetup first, then exiting without any changes,
> I can then run ppp-on. The system dials in, but now links won't
> work.

ppp-on runs a pppd program used by an eznet program which dials, but the
kernel was kept small so you need to insert two modules for pppd to work,
slhc.o and ppp.o, and pppsetup does that for you. You can insmod slhc
then insmod ppp then type ppp-on (or eznet up 0).

Can we insmod slhc ppp on one line?

> This is all EXTREMELY disappointing!

On the other hand, it is extremely surprising that so much worked, when
you probably did not even read all the instructions.

> Is it true that BasicLinux does work, or is it just another urban
> myth?

I use it for everything. Just got a pcmcia wireless connection with it.

> . ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v

Sindi (AKA 'SI').

[Sheldon Isaac]

On 21 Dec 2006 at 17:00, sindi keesan wrote:

SNIP

> I use it for everything. Just got a pcmcia wireless connection with it.

Sindi, I was going to get back to you on this a while ago, probably it would
not have helped.

I got a (older type, not cardbus) PCMCIA wireless card, a Wavebuddy, just
over 2 years ago, to try out with Windows 98 before getting one for my niece.
Eventually got it working. The slower b kind, not a g kind.
Still way faster than dialup.

Can't remember whether I ever got it working with BasicLinux - maybe I got as
far as looking for drivers, found only source code, and gave up?

Anyhow, looks like you've got it working now.

Philadelphia is (contracted with some Earthlink-related outfit) supposed to
have city-wide wireless Internet next year some time, maybe some areas will
have it in the next month or so. Poor people will get it cheap or maybe even
free, vs $17.95/month.
Of course, there are several wi-fi hotspots all over, some free.

Since my next-door neighbor put WEP (or something) security on his wireless
in late 2004 or early 2005, and was unreceptive to my suggestion that I pay a
small fee for access, I didn't use that wifi card for a long time.

Finally I got low-speed DSL from Verizon in August, then a wireless router so
that my upstairs friend/neighbor could share it. (The $1 laptop had
flickering screen [I'm told this means a break in the cable between computer
and screen], so I got her a $60 laptop)

But so far this year I certainly haven't tried BL on a computer with a
wireless adapter.

Thanks,
Sheldon
215-842-0863

[sindi keesan]

>> I use it for everything. Just got a pcmcia wireless connection with it.
>
> Sindi, I was going to get back to you on this a while ago, probably it would
> not have helped.
>
> I got a (older type, not cardbus) PCMCIA wireless card, a Wavebuddy, just
> over 2 years ago, to try out with Windows 98 before getting one for my niece.
> Eventually got it working. The slower b kind, not a g kind.
> Still way faster than dialup.
>
> Can't remember whether I ever got it working with BasicLinux - maybe I got as
> far as looking for drivers, found only source code, and gave up?

I compiled the pcmcia drivers for 2.4.31 from the source code package, but
Steven already compiled them all for 2.2.26.

> Anyhow, looks like you've got it working now.

Somewhat. On the desktop with ISA pcmcia slot the pcmcia modems and CF
adaptor and ethernet cards work in linux, and the wireless modules
segfault, or insert but iwconfig and iwlist segfault, kernel 2.2.26, with
the card that worked on two other computers in 2.2.26.


> Philadelphia is (contracted with some Earthlink-related outfit) supposed to
> have city-wide wireless Internet next year some time, maybe some areas will
> have it in the next month or so. Poor people will get it cheap or maybe even
> free, vs $17.95/month.

Here everyone will get it free, 84K/sec.

> Of course, there are several wi-fi hotspots all over, some free.
Here too, including the public library.

> Since my next-door neighbor put WEP (or something) security on his wireless
> in late 2004 or early 2005, and was unreceptive to my suggestion that I pay a
> small fee for access, I didn't use that wifi card for a long time.
>
> Finally I got low-speed DSL from Verizon in August, then a wireless router so
> that my upstairs friend/neighbor could share it. (The $1 laptop had
> flickering screen [I'm told this means a break in the cable between computer
> and screen], so I got her a $60 laptop)
>
> But so far this year I certainly haven't tried BL on a computer with a
> wireless adapter.

Have you checked if your card is supported by linux?

> Thanks,
> Sheldon

Sindi

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> I have downloaded BL3.40, hard disk version and installed it.

Did you install it to a Linux partition on your hard drive?
Or did you unzip it to C:\BASLIN on your DOS partition?

> Eventually, I did a pppsetup, then ppp-on and it connected to my
> ISP!

Well done.

> I then used pkg to install mc and yabasic. And they worked
> first time!

That's good.

> But abiword gave a "zcat: unexpected end of file" error.

The AbiWord package is big. If you are running BL3 from
C:\BASLIN, you only have 20mb of space. That's barely
enough room for AbiWord. There's not enough room for
AbiWord if you have other add-on packages too.

> And sc and xfreecell gave "tar: invalid tar magic" error.
>
> Links2 and sylpheed appeared to install properly but give
> "floating point error" when I try to run them.

Once your filesystem is full, you get all sorts of strange
error messages.

> "gunzip greenfield96Linux.ps.gz" tells me there is no
> space left on drive.

That looks like your problem. To see how much space is
remaining, do the following:
--
df
--

> That's crap! There is over 300 Mb of free space on the HDD.

There may be 300mb on your drive, but the filesystem
in C:\BASLIN is only 20mb. Normally, BL3 is installed
to its own partition on the hard drive. You can make
that partition as large as you want (using fdisk).
Then you format it (using mke2fs), mount it, and execute
install-to-hd.

Let us know if you need any help with that.

> Now, after booting, ppp-on will not work.

ppp needs two modules to work. When you run pppsetup
those modules are automatically installed for you.
However, when you turn off the power, those modules
disappear.

To activate those modules automatically at system
start-up, edit /etc/rc. There you will find the
two modules listed under ##_ACTIVATE_PPP_#
-------------
# insmod slhc
# insmod ppp
-------------
Remove the # at the beginning of each line and save.
Next time you boot BL3, those two lines will be
executed automatically.

> The system dials in, but now links won't work.

Probably, the same problem as above (no space on filesystem).

> This is all EXTREMELY disappointing!

Don't give up. We can help you sort it out.

> Is it true that BasicLinux does work

Yes, many people here have been running it for years.
But we've all had our moments of frustration trying to
figure out we've done wrong.

> Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia

Welcome Aussie. There are several antipodean users of
BasicLinux (including myself).

> "Queen City of The South"

What? Everybody knows the Queen City is Auckland. :-)

Cheers,
Steven

[Greg Mayman]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:26:57 +0700, C. Brouerius van Nidek wrote:

> Dear Greg,
> It does work but as with Arachne you need some time to fine tune your setup
> and to get everything working properly. As an alternative to Dos and Arachne
> it has it advantages in some cases and I would suggest that you keep starting
> up BL3.40 now and than and ask your questions on the list. It is my
> experience that you may expect valuable help.

I have found the problem with some help from people in another list.

BL3 apparently has very limited space, and I filled it.

The solution offered is to delete all files and re-install it.

There is no point in an OS that I can't use to keep the stuff I want.

What a waste of time this has been.

deltree baslin



. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> I have found the problem with some help from people in another list.
> BL3 apparently has very limited space, and I filled it.

Two people here told you that too. Are you not getting
the messages from here?

> The solution offered is to delete all files and re-install it.

No, the solution (which I said in a message to you) was to
install BasicLinux to its own HD partition. Running the 20mb
filesystem on DOS is only meant to be an introduction.

> There is no point in an OS that I can't use to keep the stuff
> I want.

You can keep whatever you like. You just need to assign
some space on your HD for a Linux partition and install
BasicLinux to it.

> What a waste of time this has been.

Sorry to hear you say that. All of us have been frustrated
by Linux at one time or another, but we've learned from it.
I'm sure you would have made progress too if you had stuck
with it.

Cheers,
Steven

[Lee Forrest]

On Thu, Dec 21, 2006 at 05:57:19PM +1030, Greg Mayman wrote:
> I have downloaded BL3.40, hard disk version and installed it.
[delete]
> This is all EXTREMELY disappointing!
>
> Is it true that BasicLinux does work, or is it just another urban
> myth?

BL is a hacker's distro. For people who are really into learning
linux and computers. Much more so than any mainstream distro.

How could it be otherwise? It was created for old computers, which
vary greatly. And it's _tiny_.

If you want to be an appliance operator, then run one of the
windoze-wannabee distros (I see that you already do) or windoze
itself.

Or accept the challenge and hang around and you'll get all the
help you want. You will end up creating, effectively, your
own distro. And learning a _lot_.

> from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia "Queen City of
> The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E

You have a lot of transvestites there?

Lee

[Greg Mayman]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:00:37 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

>> Eventually, I did a pppsetup, then ppp-on and it connected to my
>> ISP!

> I am very impressed that you got this working on the first try.

I would have been surprised, and most upset, if I had not.

The setup was so simple. All I had to do was enter data that I
already knew from using Arachne.

Of course the darn thing dialed by pulse rather than tone, and
there didn't seem to be any option to change that.

But I followed the instructions I was given --- NOT with the BL3
download, I might remind everyone --- and it worked.

Two simple steps: how could it fail to work if the instructions
were correct?

>> Links2 and sylpheed appeared to install properly but give
>> "floating point error" when I try to run them.

> Did you first type Xsetup and choose resolution and color depth and then
> run X (startx)?

Nobody said I had to. So why would I do it?

Someone did tell me that all you do is type "pkg <add-on>.tgz" to
install the add-on, then you type its name to run it. That worked
with mc and yabasic jes' fine!

> The programs both need X.

Now they tell me. What else is there that I don't know?

> What did you type just before the error message?

"Links2" in one case, "sylpheed" in the other case. Why would I type
anything different?

> ppp-on runs a pppd program used by an eznet program which dials, but the
> kernel was kept small so you need to insert two modules for pppd to work,
> slhc.o and ppp.o, and pppsetup does that for you. You can insmod slhc
> then insmod ppp then type ppp-on (or eznet up 0).

> Can we insmod slhc ppp on one line?

I have absolutely no idea. What does that mean?

> On the other hand, it is extremely surprising that so much worked, when
> you probably did not even read all the instructions.

Well, "probably" you really have no idea of what I did or didn't
read!

I don't know what you mean by "all the instructions" but just now
I checked through the README file again and I can't see where I
did anything wrong, or didn't do anything I should have.

Is it that the README file is totally inadequate for instructing
a new, first-time user in the things they need to know?

Elsewhere --- but _NOT_ in any instructions that came with with
BasicLinux --- I found a note that said I can enter "man bash" or
"info bash" to get a list of all the available commands and how
to use them.

Naturally "man" and "info" don't exist in BL3.

There doesn't seem to be any "help" files or similar for BL, or
any mention of where they can be found.

The new user is strictly on his own.

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> Is it that the README file is totally inadequate for instructing
> a new, first-time user in the things they need to know?

Yes, the README is inadequate for instructing a new,
first-time user. It doesn't try to. That's what this
discussion group is for.

> Elsewhere --- but _NOT_ in any instructions that came with with
> BasicLinux --- I found a note that said I can enter "man bash"

There is note about 'man' on the BL3 splash screen.

> Naturally "man" and "info" don't exist in BL3.

"man" does.

> The new user is strictly on his own.

That's not correct. There is plenty of help here.
Ask questions or browse through the old discussions.

Cheers,
Steven

[sindi keesan]

>>> Eventually, I did a pppsetup, then ppp-on and it connected to my
>>> ISP!
>
> Of course the darn thing dialed by pulse rather than tone, and
> there didn't seem to be any option to change that.

I have a few modems that dial pulse by default. Try adding T before the
phone number.

> But I followed the instructions I was given --- NOT with the BL3
> download, I might remind everyone --- and it worked.

What would you like to see added to the README file, or possibly put in a
larger readme file at the BL site to which the downloaded one refers you?

>>> Links2 and sylpheed appeared to install properly but give
>>> "floating point error" when I try to run them.
>
>> Did you first type Xsetup and choose resolution and color depth and then
>> run X (startx)?
>
> Nobody said I had to. So why would I do it?

When you boot BL3.40 you get a page of HINTS FOR NEW USERS (see also
/etc/issue) which tells you how to use X, if you know what GUI is and
that X is a GUI. Maybe it should be worded differently?

'To activate the stand-alone GUI, execute startx (required 8MB RAM)'
The first time you run it you are asked to choose resolution etc.
You can use Xsetup to change resolution later (or edit Xconfig).

But the download site does not make it at all clear that links2 and
sylpheed require X. They 'require SVGA' - what does this mean?
I interpret that as 800x600 resolution, which they do NOT need, do they?

Is it mentioned anywhere obvious that X (the GUI) needs more than 8-bit
color? And to use another X server (X_SVGA) if you have only 8-bit?

The links2 from delilinux works with svgalib, does not need X.

Steven, I could not find the instructions to insert the slhc and ppp
modules every time before dialing. Perhaps you should add those to
ppp-on. I made a dial script which inserts modules and dials.

> Someone did tell me that all you do is type "pkg <add-on>.tgz" to
> install the add-on, then you type its name to run it. That worked
> with mc and yabasic jes' fine!
>
>> The programs both need X.
>
> Now they tell me. What else is there that I don't know?

Probably a lot. Please make a list of questions and answers you think
would be helpful to other newbies, not in the readme or issue files.

>> What did you type just before the error message?
>
> "Links2" in one case, "sylpheed" in the other case. Why would I type
> anything different?

You need to run them from X. The download site did not mention this, I
think it should.

>> ppp-on runs a pppd program used by an eznet program which dials, but the
>> kernel was kept small so you need to insert two modules for pppd to work,
>> slhc.o and ppp.o, and pppsetup does that for you. You can insmod slhc
>> then insmod ppp then type ppp-on (or eznet up 0).
>
>> Can we insmod slhc ppp on one line?
>
> I have absolutely no idea. What does that mean?

I was asking other list members if you can insert two modules by typing
'insmod slhc ppp' instead of 'insmod slhc' 'insmod ppp'. I was a newbie
here not too long ago and have a lot to learn.

>> On the other hand, it is extremely surprising that so much worked, when
>> you probably did not even read all the instructions.
>
> Well, "probably" you really have no idea of what I did or didn't
> read!
>
> I don't know what you mean by "all the instructions" but just now
> I checked through the README file again and I can't see where I
> did anything wrong, or didn't do anything I should have.

> Is it that the README file is totally inadequate for instructing
> a new, first-time user in the things they need to know?

You also need to read the little page that you see when you first boot
with the HINTS. But please help to improve the README or put together
something else that I would be happy to host if Steven does not want to
put it at the site. For an older version of BL (BL1) he has a nice set of
FAQs but I don't see reference to them at the BL3 site. He can't spend
all his time working on BL but does what he can and is quite amenable to
changing things.

> Elsewhere --- but _NOT_ in any instructions that came with with
> BasicLinux --- I found a note that said I can enter "man bash" or
> "info bash" to get a list of all the available commands and how
> to use them.
>
> Naturally "man" and "info" don't exist in BL3.

We complained about that and Steven added a 'man' script and man pages.
But not 'info'. Look in /usr/man and /usr/local/man using zless and the
name of one of the .gz files, or type man and the first part of the file
name.

> There doesn't seem to be any "help" files or similar for BL, or
> any mention of where they can be found.
>
> The new user is strictly on his own.

No, there is this list for help. You obviously found the instructions to
reach the list.

> . ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v
>

Sindi, a third-year newbie.

[David Moberg]

(I make the next line look like that because gmail doesn't handle the
dates right and I don't think they help much anyway on a mailing
list.)

sindi keesan wrote:
>
> When you boot BL3.40 you get a page of HINTS FOR NEW USERS (see also
> /etc/issue) which tells you how to use X, if you know what GUI is and
> that X is a GUI. Maybe it should be worded differently?

It could point out that the console (which BL3 uses by default) uses
the keyboard while X has nice pixel-based graphics and uses a mouse
mainly. The only way to use a mouse in console BL3 is with 'cd /dev;
cat mouse', which doesn't do much, or by installing a mouse system
such as gpm or imps/2.

> But the download site does not make it at all clear that links2 and
> sylpheed require X. They 'require SVGA' - what does this mean?
> I interpret that as 800x600 resolution, which they do NOT need, do they?

I think this means that they do not work unless you can start X in
16-bit color. If your chipset only does 8-bit then you need a big X
server. I also think that "SVGA" looks too much like svgalib, which
links2 can also support but the BL3 version does not.

> Is it mentioned anywhere obvious that X (the GUI) needs more than 8-bit
> color?

It still works with 4-bit, doesn't it? It just will not work in 8-bit
mode. So to use 8-bit X clients you need a VESA graphics card that
does 16 or 15 or 12-bit?? color.

> And to use another X server (X_SVGA) if you have only 8-bit?

Only if you use 8-bit programs like abiword or links2, AFAIK.

> Steven, I could not find the instructions to insert the slhc and ppp
> modules every time before dialing.

It is in /etc/rc.

> We complained about that and Steven added a 'man' script and man pages.
> But not 'info'.

info is more complex. Most non-GNU software only has manpages.

> > . ,-./\>

David

[sindi keesan]

>> Steven, I could not find the instructions to insert the slhc and ppp
>> modules every time before dialing.
>
> It is in /etc/rc.
Perhaps /etc/issue could point to /etc/rc.
>
> David

I wonder how many newbies gave up without letting us know why. We should
thank this one.

Sindi

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

sindi keesan wrote:
>
> I wonder how many newbies gave up without letting us
> know why. We should thank this one.

Umm, you can thank him if you want, but I won't.
Some of us have made a genuine effort to help him,
but he has shown no gratitude whatsoever. In fact he
has not even acknowledged that we've tried to help him.

I would expect someone living in Australia to realize
that he's not going to get immediate answers to questions
(because most people on this list are sleeping when he's
asking questions).

As a resident in the South Pacific, I am well aware that
Aussies are less evolved than their more cultured cousins
in the Northern Hemisphere, but that's no excuse for him
acting like a jerk.

Cheers,
Steven

[sindi keesan]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:

> sindi keesan wrote:
>>
>> I wonder how many newbies gave up without letting us
>> know why. We should thank this one.
>
> Umm, you can thank him if you want, but I won't.
> Some of us have made a genuine effort to help him,
> but he has shown no gratitude whatsoever. In fact he
> has not even acknowledged that we've tried to help him.

I agree that he is an ingrate, but he still performed a useful service by
pointing out where newbies have problems.

I don't know if he actually got our emails (or postings to the archive) -
can you tell?

>
> I would expect someone living in Australia to realize
> that he's not going to get immediate answers to questions
> (because most people on this list are sleeping when he's
> asking questions).
>
> As a resident in the South Pacific, I am well aware that
> Aussies are less evolved than their more cultured cousins
> in the Northern Hemisphere, but that's no excuse for him
> acting like a jerk.

Yes he was a jerk, but an informative one.

> Cheers,
> Steven
>
>
>
> -----------------------
> BasicLinux mailing list
> -----------------------
> http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/baslinux/
> ------------------------------------
> To exit, send subject=unsubscribe to
> baslinux-***@lists.ibiblio.org
>

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Lee Forrest]

On Sat, Dec 23, 2006 at 03:25:01PM +1300, 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:
Sindi Keesan said:
[delete]

> As a resident in the South Pacific, I am well aware that
> Aussies are less evolved than their more cultured cousins
> in the Northern Hemisphere,

:-)

> but that's no excuse for him
> acting like a jerk.

Sindi sees the good in people. And that's a virtue.
But it needs to be tempered with common sense.
For _her_ own good.


Lee

--
Basic Linux: Small is Beautiful
http://www.basiclinux.com.ru

[Lee Forrest]

On Fri, Dec 22, 2006 at 09:42:07PM -0800, Lee Forrest wrote:

[delete]

"Greg Mayman" also sent 5 mails to my private box, 4 tonight and
1 a couple of days ago. They were deleted without being read.

As all of his posts to the list in my local cache have been.

Lee

--
BasicLinux: Small is Beautiful
http://www.basiclinux.com.ru

[Lee Forrest]

On Sat, Dec 23, 2006 at 03:25:01PM +1300, 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:
[delete]
> As a resident in the South Pacific, I am well aware that
> Aussies are less evolved than their more cultured cousins
> in the Northern Hemisphere,

I just checked wikipedia. Turns out that sitting beside a
billabong under the shade of a koolibah tree does irreparable
genetic damage.

[delete]

Lee

--
Basic Linux: Small is Beautiful
http://www.basiclinux.com.ru

[Ron Clarke]

Hi Folks,

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:25:01 +1300
3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:

> sindi keesan wrote:
> >
> > I wonder how many newbies gave up without letting us
> > know why. We should thank this one.
>
> Umm, you can thank him if you want, but I won't.
> Some of us have made a genuine effort to help him,
> but he has shown no gratitude whatsoever. In fact he
> has not even acknowledged that we've tried to help him.

I have known Greg Mayman for a long time, from the Arachne list. This is not like the guy I know.

> I would expect someone living in Australia to realize
> that he's not going to get immediate answers to questions
> (because most people on this list are sleeping when he's
> asking questions).

Yes, that is so also on the Arachne list.

> As a resident in the South Pacific, I am well aware that
> Aussies are less evolved than their more cultured cousins
> in the Northern Hemisphere,

Carefull !!

> but that's no excuse for him acting like a jerk.

I can't help thinking that there is more happening here than we are aware of.
This is not like the person I have corresponded with for a long time.
It has all been quite out of character.

Regards,
Aussie Ron

--
Ron Clarke
AUSREG Consultancy http://www.ausreg.com
Tadpole Tunes http://www.tadpoletunes.com
This mail sent to you from sylpheed running on penguin-power

[Lee Forrest]

On Sat, Dec 23, 2006 at 05:20:18PM +1100, Ron Clarke wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
[delete]

> I have known Greg Mayman for a long time, from the Arachne
> list. This is not like the guy I know.

[delete]

> I can't help thinking that there is more happening here
> than we are aware of. This is not like the person I have
> corresponded with for a long time. It has all been quite out of
> character.

I have suspected from the beginning that this fellow was a troll.
(Ask Sindi.) But it didn't occur to me that it might be a troll
who was forging someone else's name.

Should have.

That really stinks.

[delete]

Lee

[Greg Mayman]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:05:46 -0800, Lee Forrest wrote:

> BL is a hacker's distro. For people who are really into learning
> linux and computers. Much more so than any mainstream distro.

That sounds just fine to me! I don't want something that I have
to _fight_, like I have to with Windoze, just to make it do
things the way I want them done.

> How could it be otherwise? It was created for old computers, which
> vary greatly. And it's _tiny_.

That sounds even better.

> If you want to be an appliance operator, then run one of the
> windoze-wannabee distros (I see that you already do) or windoze
> itself.

Wash yo' mouth out with STRONG soap!

I do _NOT_ use a windoze-wannabee distro of anything.

My other computer has W98, but only because I don't have drivers
for any other OS to suit some of the hardware I use.

That is one reason I want Linux, if I can ever get it working.

> Or accept the challenge and hang around and you'll get all the
> help you want. You will end up creating, effectively, your
> own distro. And learning a _lot_.

It has been disappointing so far.

Advice such as "Don't load too much, or if you do, then destroy
everything you have loaded and start again" is very off-putting.

There has to be a better way to use it.

>> from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia "Queen City of
>> The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E

> You have a lot of transvestites there?

You're thinking of "drag city" aren't you? <GGGGG>

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[sindi keesan]

>
> My other computer has W98, but only because I don't have drivers
> for any other OS to suit some of the hardware I use.

I still need Win98 for some hardware, such as to set an IP address for a
Linksys router. And to upgrade a 1997 USR modem to V90. Or if I wanted
to use certain printers.

>
> That is one reason I want Linux, if I can ever get it working.
>
> Advice such as "Don't load too much, or if you do, then destroy
> everything you have loaded and start again" is very off-putting.

Nobody here told you that. You could have asked here first.
It is even possible to make the 20MB version any size you want without
having a separate linux partition. Such as 100MB so you can load all the
add-ons, or 5MB so you can run it from a USB camera (except it ends up
being read-write for some unknown reason).

Please help to improve the documentation with specific suggestions. You
may have missed something, or it may be missing.

> . ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v

Sindi

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[James Miller]

On Mon, Dec 25, 2006 at 04:54:33PM +1030, Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> It has been disappointing so far.
>
> Advice such as "Don't load too much, or if you do, then destroy
> everything you have loaded and start again" is very off-putting.
>
> There has to be a better way to use it.

Nobody on this list gave you that advice. You're mixing advice from various sources. That's
the first thing you should stop doing if you want to use BL. Here's the basic thing you need
to understand about BL: the version you got is probably the testing version. It's the one
people who use DOS or some earlier version of Windows can try out without disrupting what's
already on their machine. It consists of a large file that contains and runs BL. But that
file only gives you 20 megabytes to work in. A larger file can be created if one wants to
keep his existing DOS/Win installation and still run BL alongside it, but even then only
about 50 megabytes would be the maximum size. But that all refers to the testing system.
Once one has reached the limits of the testing system, the next step is to install BL to a
dedicated hard drive or partition on a hard drive. Once you do that, the space limits of the
testing system no longer hold: BL can be installed onto drives/partitions of up to 128
gigabytes. You are very unlikely to run out of space using BL on a drive/partition of that
size.

If you want a Linux that does not keep you from doing whatever you please on your machine,
then BL will be a good candidate. You won't run into the sort of permissions problems you
have with other Linux distributions since you run as the root user by default in BL. This
makes it operate alot like DOS, but it does carry some security risks.

James

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> That is one reason I want Linux, if I can ever get it working.

It sounds like it was working, until you filled
up the filesystem.

> > hang around and you'll get all the help you want
>
> It has been disappointing so far.

Pardon me?
You are disappointed with the help we have offered?

> Advice such as "Don't load too much, or if you do, then
> destroy everything you have loaded and start again" is
> very off-putting.

Where exactly did you get that advice? It wasn't here.

I repeat below the advice I gave you on 22 December:
---------------------------------------------------------
The AbiWord package is big. If you are running BL3 from
C:\BASLIN, you only have 20mb of space. That's barely
enough room for AbiWord. There's not enough room for
AbiWord if you have other add-on packages too.

Once your filesystem is full, you get all sorts of strange
error messages.

To see how much space is remaining, do the following:
--
df
--

There may be 300mb on your drive, but the filesystem
in C:\BASLIN is only 20mb. Normally, BL3 is installed
to its own partition on the hard drive. You can make
that partition as large as you want (using fdisk).
Then you format it (using mke2fs), mount it, and execute
install-to-hd. Let us know if you need any help with that.

Don't give up. We can help you sort it out.
----------------------------------------------------------

[Greg Mayman]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:40:14 +1300, 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:

> Greg Mayman wrote:

>> Is it that the README file is totally inadequate for instructing
>> a new, first-time user in the things they need to know?

> Yes, the README is inadequate for instructing a new,
> first-time user. It doesn't try to. That's what this
> discussion group is for.

There are things that a new user _always_ needs to know. With
other software, OS's etc that I've downloaded there has always
been a decent doc file to explain a lot of these things.

With some utility software that I have gathered over the years,
the doc file was larger than the software. But admittedly that was
in extreme cases only ;-)

In a 2.9 Mb package, surely BL3 could include a something better
than that README. A 30k doc file would add only 1% to the package.

> There is note about 'man' on the BL3 splash screen.

How about an FAQ file, if not a full doc file, for example
Q: what is meant by the "loop" version?
Q: what is a "splash screen"?
and so on.

>> Naturally "man" and "info" don't exist in BL3.
> "man" does.

I can't verify this as it is BL3 is not currently installed.

But I distinctly remember getting an error message to "man bash".

>> The new user is strictly on his own.
> That's not correct. There is plenty of help here.
> Ask questions or browse through the old discussions.

Let me qualify my statement: The new user is strictly on his own
if he isn't a subscriber to a list that he didn't know he had to
join just to find out the basics of the system.

Sheeeeesh! In no other download have I found it to be necessary
to subscribe to a list to find out basic stuff about it!

What the **** is wrong with a doc file in the download?

Meanwhile I have only a little bit of space left on the HDD of
this computer, and I don't want to commit it to a separate
partition, so I won't be progressing with BL, at least for now.

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> How about an FAQ file, if not a full doc file, for example
> Q: what is meant by the "loop" version?
> Q: what is a "splash screen"?
> and so on.

Q: what is Linux?
Q: what is the purpose of the ENTER key?
Q: how do I turn on the computer?
Q: why am I here?

> But I distinctly remember getting an error message to "man bash".

As I said before, BasicLinux does not contain bash.
Naturally "man bash" comes up empty. So does "man peanut".

> The new user is strictly on his own

Except for the README and the HINTS FOR NEW USERS.

> if he isn't a subscriber to a list that he didn't know
> he had to join

As it says: "All support for BasicLinux is now done via
the Mailing List."

> I don't want to commit it to a separate partition

That's why I provided the 20mb loop version -- for people
reluctant to commit. However, 20mb is not enough space to
add numerous add-ons. You should have checked your available
space before adding so many packages.

[Greg Mayman]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:49:03 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

> I have a few modems that dial pulse by default. Try adding T before the
> phone number.

My modems are always set to default to tone dialling on power up.
And the initialization code is always ATZ0, which again selects
the default setup with tone dialling.

In pppsetup I have set 0 init1 to ATZ0.

The only way it could change is if ppp-on is sending the ATDP
code to the modem rather than ATDT.

> What would you like to see added to the README file, or possibly put in a
> larger readme file at the BL site to which the downloaded one refers you?

Some instructions on how to use the derned thing. And some
explanation as to why the trial version overloads so easily, and
why the version in its own partition is so much better.

And a list of the commands I can use with it. Until someone told
me, I didn't even know how to install any of the add-ons, or how
to try an internet connection.

If one of the subscribers to the list could imagine that they
have never used Linux before, they could install the BL3 package
strictly according to the instructions, and see how well it works
for them.

But they must NOT use any knowledge they have gathered prior to
that installation. They must use ONLY the information in the
README file, or what is on the download site.

They must NOT assume that a mention of the option of installing
BL in its own HDD partition implies anything more than is
actually stated in the README file or on the download page, that
is that it is only an option.

> When you boot BL3.40 you get a page of HINTS FOR NEW USERS (see also
> /etc/issue) which tells you how to use X, if you know what GUI is and
> that X is a GUI. Maybe it should be worded differently?

I don't remember seeing that page. And since I don't have it
installed at present I can't check it out.

Yes, I know what a GUI is. No, I did _not_ know that "X" was a GUI.

> 'To activate the stand-alone GUI, execute startx (required 8MB RAM)'
> The first time you run it you are asked to choose resolution etc.
> You can use Xsetup to change resolution later (or edit Xconfig).

> But the download site does not make it at all clear that links2 and
> sylpheed require X. They 'require SVGA' - what does this mean?
> I interpret that as 800x600 resolution, which they do NOT need, do they?

I interpret it to mean that basic VGA would not work with them.

But exactly what the differences are between VGA and SVGA is
something I'm not sure about. You could be right about SVGA
meaning it can do 800x600 (and above).

> Is it mentioned anywhere obvious that X (the GUI) needs more than 8-bit
> color? And to use another X server (X_SVGA) if you have only 8-bit?

Aha! THAT is the kind of thing that should be in the DOC file for
the new user.

>> Now they tell me. What else is there that I don't know?
> Probably a lot. Please make a list of questions and answers you think
> would be helpful to other newbies, not in the readme or issue files.

I don't know enough to even know what questions to ask!

> You also need to read the little page that you see when you first boot
> with the HINTS.

I don't remember that page. There was a block of about 10 lines
or so that comes up when BL3 is started. I didn't understand much
of it.

> We complained about that and Steven added a 'man' script and man pages.
> But not 'info'. Look in /usr/man and /usr/local/man using zless and the
> name of one of the .gz files, or type man and the first part of the file
> name.

But why would a new user think to look for these things deep down
in the directory structure?

>> The new user is strictly on his own.

> No, there is this list for help. You obviously found the instructions to
> reach the list.

Yes, I saw it in the add-ons page. But I never had to join a
discussion list as a first step. I have found it to be
counter-productive, at least until I know a little about the
thing I am trying to use so I can know what questions to ask and
understand the things they suggest I try.

Step 1: RTFM
Step 2: play with it a bit
Step 3: start asking questions

That's what has always worked for me in the past.

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> In pppsetup I have set 0 init1 to ATZ0.

That is not necessary. eznet automatically sends ATZ.
The init1 parameter is for modems that need unusual settings.

> some explanation as to why the trial version overloads
> so easily

The loop version does not overload easily. It provides
20mb of space (which is much more than the ramdisk version
gives you). I am surprise that you expect to install
package after package after package and never run out of
room.

> why the version in its own partition is so much better.

I'm not sure that a partition is "so much better".
For one thing, it depends on how big you make the
partition (obviously a 15mb partition provides less
space than the 20mb loop file).

> And a list of the commands I can use with it.

The HINTS FOR NEW USERS give you some commands.
To see all the commands that are available, look
in the executables directories.

> Until someone told me, I didn't even know how to
> install any of the add-ons

It's a pity they told you -- it only got you into trouble.

Anyway, how much explanation do you need? The page where
you download the add-ons says this:
-------------------------------------------------------------
All of these files should be installed using the pkg command.
For example to install ssh: pkg ssh.tgz
-------------------------------------------------------------

> or how to try an internet connection.

pppsetup is mentioned in the HINTS FOR NEW USERS

> If one of the subscribers to the list could imagine that
> they have never used Linux before

As I said before, BasicLinux is not designed for Linux
newbies. It is not designed for idiots.

I am happy for newbies to try BasicLinux, and I do try to
help them climb the learning curve, but that is not the
purpose of BasicLinux.

> Maybe it should be worded differently?

Sindi may welcome your criticisms of BasicLinux, I do not.
Please don't waste your time making suggestions. If you
want to use BasicLinux, you are welcome to ask questions
and/or report progress. Otherwise, there is no point
your being here.

Cheers,
Steven

[sindi keesan]

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:

> Greg Mayman wrote:
>>
>> In pppsetup I have set 0 init1 to ATZ0.
>
> That is not necessary. eznet automatically sends ATZ.
> The init1 parameter is for modems that need unusual settings.

I used it with a 56Flex pcmcia modem to disable 56Flex so that it would
dial at 33K (instead of trying to connect at 56K and disconnecting) and I
also use it for USR modems AT&F1 (which does not work for other modems).

> I'm not sure that a partition is "so much better".
> For one thing, it depends on how big you make the
> partition (obviously a 15mb partition provides less
> space than the 20mb loop file).

I put BL3 in a 100MB loop partition on one computer where I did not have a
spare partition.

> The HINTS FOR NEW USERS give you some commands.
> To see all the commands that are available, look
> in the executables directories.

which plus command name lets you know if/where a command exists.
>
>> If one of the subscribers to the list could imagine that
>> they have never used Linux before
>
> As I said before, BasicLinux is not designed for Linux
> newbies. It is not designed for idiots.

It worked for me as a newbie. But I ask lots of questions here.

>> Maybe it should be worded differently?

> Sindi may welcome your criticisms of BasicLinux, I do not.

> Cheers,
> Steven

It would help if the criticisms came with a different attitude.
I still think it would be helpful to know what problems a complete
beginner runs into despite reading the README and /etc/issue.
Then to provide solutions, maybe at the website.

Sindi

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Greg Mayman]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 01:33:23 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

> I wonder how many newbies gave up without letting us know why. We should
> thank this one.

I wondered that too.

I apologize to anyone I have offended with what I said. I have
tried to point out that I felt frustrated --- make that *V*E*R*Y*
frustrated --- with my inability to make BL3 work with the
add-ons that I wanted to try.

What also frustrated me was the repeated suggestion I got from
several people that I delete it once I have installed enough to
fill it up, and start again. And this advice from people who had
advised me to try it in the first place.

SHEEEEESH! How utterly maddening to keep hearing that, when it
should be obvious how STUPID that method would be for any OS that
was supposed to be usable for proper work.

But people kept saying that they were using BL, so I just KNEW
there had to be a better way to make it work than just deleting
it and re-installing stuff.

Eventually, I was advised to seek help here.

Again I apologise for any offence that I have caused, but at that
stage I was almost tearing my hair out in frustration.

And as for looking through the archives of the list:

1. I did not know there were any archives, nor do I know even
now how to find them.

2. Since at that stage I did not know enough even to frame
questions on the subject, how should a new user search the
archives? Should he read through them in their totality?

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> What also frustrated me was the repeated suggestion I got from
> several people that I delete it once I have installed enough to
> fill it up, and start again.
>
> SHEEEEESH! How utterly maddening to keep hearing that
>
> Eventually, I was advised to seek help here.

That was your mistake. You should have come here first.
We are the experts on BasicLinux.

> Since at that stage I did not know enough even to frame
> questions on the subject, how should a new user search the
> archives? Should he read through them in their totality?

Yes, that would be a good thing to do: scan the subjects and
read any that sound useful.

[sindi keesan]

On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Greg Mayman wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 01:33:23 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:
>
>> I wonder how many newbies gave up without letting us know why. We should
>> thank this one.
>
> I wondered that too.
>
> I apologize to anyone I have offended with what I said. I have
> tried to point out that I felt frustrated --- make that *V*E*R*Y*
> frustrated --- with my inability to make BL3 work with the
> add-ons that I wanted to try.

When you feel frustrated and upset, it is not the best time to post
answers. Wait a day. You may be correct that the user instructions are
inadequate, but they are not intentionally so, and nobody appreciates
being told they did a lousy job with their documentation.

Several of us have BL-related packages at our own sites. Perhaps you could
write up solutions to the problems you ran into, let the rest of us
suggest modifications (for instance, point out that your question was
already answered some place), and post the result at your site and ask
Steven to link to it. Or I can host what you write up. You do have some
valid points.

> What also frustrated me was the repeated suggestion I got from
> several people that I delete it once I have installed enough to
> fill it up, and start again. And this advice from people who had
> advised me to try it in the first place.
>
> SHEEEEESH! How utterly maddening to keep hearing that, when it
> should be obvious how STUPID that method would be for any OS that
> was supposed to be usable for proper work.

You should choose your advisers more carefully.
> And as for looking through the archives of the list:
>
> 1. I did not know there were any archives, nor do I know even
> now how to find them.

There is a link from the support page that you reach from the BL website,
but it is not at all obvious where to find the archives. I also would
appreciate a direct link to the archives from the BL site, rather than
just a suggestion to search with Google.


> 2. Since at that stage I did not know enough even to frame
> questions on the subject, how should a new user search the
> archives? Should he read through them in their totality?

I would not know how to phrase the right questions either. Lots of people
write into this list with the same basic questions. If you have the time,
you could collect some of the more commonly repeated problems in the
archives and write up the solutions. Steven may not have the time for
this, he does have another life, though he does try to help all newbies
immediately (even the more frustrated and less polite ones).

Sindi

. ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v
>

[Greg Mayman]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:25:01 +1300, 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:

> As a resident in the South Pacific, I am well aware that
> Aussies are less evolved than their more cultured cousins
> in the Northern Hemisphere, but that's no excuse for him
> acting like a jerk.

Who is acting like a jerk now? <GGGGGGGGGG>

I shall ignore your obviously intentional provocation, and try to
give a sensible and unemotional explanation of what is happening.

The problem is that I read and answer mail OFFLINE!

Yeah, I know that is a totally unknown thing to most people, but
it is the way I work, mainly to minimize online time with my
dialup service, which could be prohibitively expensive if I did
it any other way.

This means that I may upload some messages on (say) Monday, and
at the same time download a pile of stuff, which I read and write
replies to.

Then on Thursday (say), I upload my replies and download the
incoming stuff which can include replies to the stuff I uploaded
on Monday.

Next thing, someone who doesn't understand my system complains
that he he has already answered the stuff I uploaded on Monday,
and in my messages I uploaded on Thursday I have "completely
ignored" what he wrote to me on Tuesday.

What could I do but ignore what I hadn't yet seen? It didn't get
to me until the Thursday connection, which also was when I
uploaded my replies to the Monday mail.

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> > As a resident in the South Pacific, I am well aware that
> > Aussies are less evolved than their more cultured cousins
> > in the Northern Hemisphere, but that's no excuse for him
> > acting like a jerk.
>
> I shall ignore your obviously intentional provocation,

Come on, Aussie, you know kiwis are always having a go
at their antipodean neighbours. My favourite is how all
the kiwis emigrating to Australia are increasing the average
IQs in both countries.

> The problem is that I read and answer mail OFFLINE!

So do I. So do others on this list.

> I know that is a totally unknown thing to most people,

Not here.

> but it is the way I work, mainly to minimize online time
> with my dialup service

I'm on dialup too. So are others here.

> This means that I may upload some messages on (say) Monday,
>
> Then on Thursday (say), I upload my replies

Why the delay? Most of us reply to messages the same day
we get them (it takes just a minute to upload the replies).
I consider it common curtesy to reply to messages promptly.

> Next thing, someone who doesn't understand my system complains
> that he he has already answered the stuff I uploaded on Monday,
> and in my messages I uploaded on Thursday I have "completely
> ignored" what he wrote to me on Tuesday.

You could easily avoid such crossed messages by clearing your
mail daily.

[Greg Mayman]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 04:11:17 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

> I agree that he is an ingrate, but he still performed a useful service by
> pointing out where newbies have problems.

Why are you calling me an ingrate? I am very grateful for what
useful advice I have received here.

But I have also received so much abuse, most of it over the fact
that I _dared_ to express my frustration with a bit of software
that wouldn't work, and with the lack of any helpful
documentation.

Let me say just this: A chain is only as strong as its weakest
link. The weak link with BasicLinux, at least with the version I
downloaded, is its documentation which is frankly, m' dear,
APPALLING in its parcity!

> I don't know if he actually got our emails (or postings to the archive) -
> can you tell?

Yes, I am getting the emails, eventually.

But I have a life outside of emailing, and sometimes I don't connect
for days at a time.

That's the way I do things.

If you don't like it, then that's just too bad!

> Yes he was a jerk, but an informative one.

Maybe I was. I am sorry if I upset all of you.

But the abuse I have received for daring to criticise BasicLinux
has more than made up for it.

Why can't you people realize that someone who has never seen BL
before is going to find it hard, especially when there is no
documentation readily visible with the download?

[sindi keesan]

On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Greg Mayman wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 04:11:17 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:
>
>> I agree that he is an ingrate, but he still performed a useful service by
>> pointing out where newbies have problems.
>
> Why are you calling me an ingrate? I am very grateful for what
> useful advice I have received here.

Maybe our mails crossed, but after at least two of us tried to answer your
questions, you wrote again saying how impossible BL was to use. That
struck me as ungrateful. If you still have your first couple of mails,
read them over from the viewpoint of the rest of us, particularly Steven.

> But I have also received so much abuse, most of it over the fact
> that I _dared_ to express my frustration with a bit of software
> that wouldn't work, and with the lack of any helpful
> documentation.

Try expressing your frustration in different terms, letting us know that
you do not know how to use BL, and could not find the solutions in the
available documentation, not that BL is unusable.

> Let me say just this: A chain is only as strong as its weakest
> link. The weak link with BasicLinux, at least with the version I
> downloaded, is its documentation which is frankly, m' dear,
> APPALLING in its parcity!

Do Aussies pronounce parcity to rhyme with paucity?

How would you modify the website, the readme, and the HINTS to make them
work better?

>> I don't know if he actually got our emails (or postings to the archive) -
>> can you tell?
>
> Yes, I am getting the emails, eventually.
>
> But I have a life outside of emailing, and sometimes I don't connect
> for days at a time.
>
> That's the way I do things.

> If you don't like it, then that's just too bad!

This is what I meant about attitude. At least read everything people have
written before you start replying.

>> Yes he was a jerk, but an informative one.
>
> Maybe I was. I am sorry if I upset all of you.

I accept the apology if you promise not to do it again ;=)

> But the abuse I have received for daring to criticise BasicLinux
> has more than made up for it.

I think only one person abused you, the others expressed annoyance that
you complained of bad advice, that came from bad advisors that you chose.

> Why can't you people realize that someone who has never seen BL
> before is going to find it hard, especially when there is no
> documentation readily visible with the download?

You don't really mean 'no' documentation.

There are other programs which come with less documentation and refer you
to their website. Links browser is much worse documented.

I would like to see more info at the website about how the versions
differ (ramdisk, loop and ext2). And more specific instructions on how to
load X before trying to run Links2 graphical, Sylpheed, etc. And the fact
that Abiword and Links2 need at least 15-bit color and Xvesa does not work
with 8-bit color.

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Greg Mayman]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:05:54 -0800, Lee Forrest wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 23, 2006 at 03:25:01PM +1300, 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:
> [delete]
>> As a resident in the South Pacific, I am well aware that
>> Aussies are less evolved than their more cultured cousins
>> in the Northern Hemisphere,

> I just checked wikipedia. Turns out that sitting beside a
> billabong under the shade of a koolibah tree does irreparable
> genetic damage.

Gee, there really are some rude bastards contributing to this list.

What a shame that it should degenerate into that kinda thing.

[sindi keesan]

On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Greg Mayman wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:05:54 -0800, Lee Forrest wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Dec 23, 2006 at 03:25:01PM +1300, 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:
>> [delete]
>>> As a resident in the South Pacific, I am well aware that
>>> Aussies are less evolved than their more cultured cousins
>>> in the Northern Hemisphere,
>
>> I just checked wikipedia. Turns out that sitting beside a
>> billabong under the shade of a koolibah tree does irreparable
>> genetic damage.

I thought the above was an attempt at humor from someone who found your
behavior rude but was trying to keep his temper anyway. It can be hard to
recognize a joke when it is in writing and you don't know the person.

> Gee, there really are some rude bastards contributing to this list.
>
> What a shame that it should degenerate into that kinda thing.

Several of us thought it was rude to come here and announce that BL was
useless (which nobody else has done in three years), but several people
tried to help you anyway. A couple of people expressed their annoyance.
Do you want to start over, phrase things politely in future, and help make
improvements to the documentation?

Instead of criticizing two train stations for not having local bus maps, I
just tracked down and delivered the maps to them. They thanked me and
promised to post them.

Sindi

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Greg Mayman]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 23:59:09 -0800, Lee Forrest wrote:

> I have suspected from the beginning that this fellow was a troll.
> (Ask Sindi.) But it didn't occur to me that it might be a troll
> who was forging someone else's name.

Nope, the messages are genuine. No forgery.

It seems I got off on the wrong foot when I started posting to this
list. But after days of frustration with BasicLinux, I was NOT feeling
good about it.

But I was NOT prepared for the abuse I got from some of the list
members, which was far stronger than was justified.

Maybe I should have done as so many other people have done after trying
BL and running into the brickwalls I encountered, and just give up.

If you feel I was trolling, that's your opinion. There's nothing I can do
to change it.

All I can say is that I came here genuinely seeking help, and I have
received precious little (although what there was was good).

Thank you, and good night.

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> All I can say is that I came here genuinely seeking help,

Really? I was under the impression that you came
here to complain.

> and I have received precious little

On the contrary, I immediately sent you a considered reply
that directly addressed your problems. Others here also
made useful suggestions.

Besides (correct me if I am wrong), didn't you delete
BasicLinux before you read the advice from this discussion
group? How is that the behaviour of someone genuinely
looking for help?

[sindi keesan]

On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Greg Mayman wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 23:59:09 -0800, Lee Forrest wrote:
>
>> I have suspected from the beginning that this fellow was a troll.
>> (Ask Sindi.) But it didn't occur to me that it might be a troll
>> who was forging someone else's name.

Lee wears troll-colored glasses. He had one bad experience.
His attitude is not necessarily representative of the list members.

> All I can say is that I came here genuinely seeking help, and I have
> received precious little (although what there was was good).

At least two of us wrote you long emails immediately, which you did not
comment on before posting another criticism. Have you had time to try our
suggestions? Do you have BL in ext2 yet?

Sindi

[Greg Mayman]

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 08:33:55 +1300, 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:

> Greg Mayman wrote:

>> That is one reason I want Linux, if I can ever get it working.
> It sounds like it was working, until you filled
> up the filesystem.

Which is when it stopped working, at least for the add-ons I still
wanted to try.

> Pardon me?
> You are disappointed with the help we have offered?

That was the one bright spark in otherwise overwhelming gloom.

>> Advice such as "Don't load too much, or if you do, then
>> destroy everything you have loaded and start again" is
>> very off-putting.

> Where exactly did you get that advice? It wasn't here.

Hmmm... there was one message that implied as much. Your message
gave me more helpful advice.

But with only 300 Mb to spare I was loathe to commit any of it
permanently to BL.

When I have some spare time, I'll go looking for another, bigger HDD.


. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[sindi keesan]

>
> But with only 300 Mb to spare I was loathe to commit any of it
> permanently to BL.

100MB should be plenty if you don't plan to compile.

In 47MB I have kermit (but microcom usually works instead), links2, lynx,
Opera (three browsers), a way to display pdf (without X, convert to images
or text), a way to view images (xli or zgv), a way to modify images and
print them (netpbm). Abiword uses another 12MB. In a few more megabytes
you could include sound support (with a larger kernel) and streaming audio
(mplayer) and a DVD player (mplayer). Support for digital cameras
(gphoto). All of Steven's add-ons might fit into 100MB.

Can you shrink your DOS partition to make a 100MB free space?


> Greg Mayman

Sindi

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

sindi keesan wrote:
>
> In a few more megabytes you could include sound support
> (with a larger kernel) and streaming audio (mplayer)

The default BL3 kernel does sound -- a larger kernel is
not required for this. Right now (as I type this message)
I am listening to streaming audio via mplayer on the
zimage.p2 kernel.

Cheers,
Steven

[Alejandro Lieber]

On 28 Dec 06 at 11:38, 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:


> Greg Mayman wrote:
> The loop version does not overload easily. It provides
> 20mb of space (which is much more than the ramdisk version
> gives you). I am surprise that you expect to install
> package after package after package and never run out of
> room.
>
> > why the version in its own partition is so much better.
>
> I'm not sure that a partition is "so much better".
> For one thing, it depends on how big you make the
> partition (obviously a 15mb partition provides less
> space than the 20mb loop file).

I have lost BL3 several times running in a partition.
Never in a loop.
That's why I continue running it in a loop.

As my loop is only 10Mby, I can backup it from DOS with PKZIP to
only 3 diskettes.



Read net news (USENET) with Arachne: http://www.lieber.com.ar/nnews.zip
Sans Serif fonts for MS-DOS at: http://www.lieber.com.ar/novafont.zip
Configurable dialing menu for several DOS internet programs at:
http://www.lieber.com.ar/dial_ip.zip

This email sent from a 1Mby 20Mhz 80286.... who needs more ?
---------------------
Ing. Alejandro Lieber
Rosario Argentina
---------------------

[Alejandro Lieber]

On 27 Dec 06 at 15:38, Greg Mayman wrote:

> There are things that a new user _always_ needs to know. With
> other software, OS's etc that I've downloaded there has always
> been a decent doc file to explain a lot of these things.

Greg:

I think that BL3 has a small doc file simply because this linux
distribution is for people that LIKE to experiment.

We must thank the person that took the time to do this distribution.

I went from DOS to BL3 knowing nothing about LINUX, so I begun
READING some books and applying this new learnings in BL3.

I finished doing my own distribution: not a single file for X.
I have Links, Mutt and MC in a 10Mby loop in a 386DX with 8MBy and an
hercules monitor. A lot of fun.

Thanks to BL3, now I run RedHat 9 and Ubuntu in a 800Mhz Celeron.

> Let me qualify my statement: The new user is strictly on his own
> if he isn't a subscriber to a list that he didn't know he had to
> join just to find out the basics of the system.
>
> Sheeeeesh! In no other download have I found it to be necessary
> to subscribe to a list to find out basic stuff about it!

Greg: you are a user of ARACHNE, and you know how dificult it is
to do the internet with DOS. Almost all of us who still use DOS must
be subcribed to the Arachne list because of the poor documentation.

Haven`t you thought the same when you first used Arachne as you think
now of BL3 ?




>

Read net news (USENET) with Arachne: http://www.lieber.com.ar/nnews.zip
Sans Serif fonts for MS-DOS at: http://www.lieber.com.ar/novafont.zip
Configurable dialing menu for several DOS internet programs at:
http://www.lieber.com.ar/dial_ip.zip

This email sent from a 1Mby 20Mhz 80286.... who needs more ?
---------------------
Ing. Alejandro Lieber
Rosario Argentina
---------------------

[Greg Mayman]

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:40:49, Alejandro Lieber wrote:

> I think that BL3 has a small doc file simply because this linux
> distribution is for people that LIKE to experiment.

That's me.

> We must thank the person that took the time to do this distribution.

And I most certainly do!

> I went from DOS to BL3 knowing nothing about LINUX, so I begun
> READING some books and applying this new learnings in BL3.

"The Complete Idiot's Guide To..." is almost useless as it seems
to be almost exclusively devoted to a GUI-only version.

The download of Larry Greenfield's Linux Users' Guide is VERY
obviously aimed at the larger distros, but it has a lot of good
stuff on commandline use that is 100% applicable to BL.

> Greg: you are a user of ARACHNE, and you know how dificult it is
> to do the internet with DOS. Almost all of us who still use DOS must
> be subcribed to the Arachne list because of the poor documentation.

> Haven`t you thought the same when you first used Arachne as you think
> now of BL3 ?

But Arachne comes with installation wizards, 140 kb of help
files, another 129 kb of files in the DOC subdirectory, and
another 130k of examples.

That all makes it a LOT easier for the new user.

> This email sent from a 1Mby 20Mhz 80286.... who needs more ?

LOL! Yeah, it puts it right up those people who insist that you need a
2 GHz processor, 40 GB of HDD and a Gb of RAM just to send and receieve
mail <GGGGGGGGG>

And those 286's will keep chugging on and on and on.......

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[sindi keesan]

>> Haven`t you thought the same when you first used Arachne as you think
>> now of BL3 ?
>
> But Arachne comes with installation wizards, 140 kb of help
> files, another 129 kb of files in the DOC subdirectory, and
> another 130k of examples.
>
> That all makes it a LOT easier for the new user.

I found Arachne much more confusing and somewhat buggy. BL1 worked for me
right away when I read the instructions to install it to hard drive.

>> This email sent from a 1Mby 20Mhz 80286.... who needs more ?

I have sent emails from an XT with no hard drive. Is that all you want to
do with your computer?

> LOL! Yeah, it puts it right up those people who insist that you need a
> 2 GHz processor, 40 GB of HDD and a Gb of RAM just to send and receieve
> mail <GGGGGGGGG>
>
> And those 286's will keep chugging on and on and on.......

I hear that later computers were more energy efficient.

Welcome back to the list.

> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia

Sindi

[Ron Clarke]

Hi Folks,

On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:53:22 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

>> But Arachne comes with installation wizards, 140 kb of help
>> files, another 129 kb of files in the DOC subdirectory, and
>> another 130k of examples.
>> That all makes it a LOT easier for the new user.

> I found Arachne much more confusing and somewhat buggy.

How long has it been since you last tried Arachne ?

Arachne is under constant development, and is almost infinately
customisable. The installation wizards all work properly, and the
support from the Arachne mailing list matches what we enjoy on the BL
list.

Bugs are rather few and far between, and are dealt with remarkably
quickly.

I am answering this email with Arachne v.1.90JG (Arachne GPL), much
customised.

Regards,
Ron


Ron Clarke
AUSREG Consultancy http://www.ausreg.com
Tadpole Tunes http://www.tadpoletunes.com
-- This mail was written by a user of the Arachne Browser - http://arachne.cz/

[sindi keesan]

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Ron Clarke wrote:

>> I found Arachne much more confusing and somewhat buggy.
>
> How long has it been since you last tried Arachne ?

Version 8, a couple of years ago?

I got annoyed when I offered to fix the English, in fact I sent him a file
of suggested grammatical corrections and it never got corrected.
Steven aims at perfection.

> Arachne is under constant development, and is almost infinately
> customisable. The installation wizards all work properly, and the
> support from the Arachne mailing list matches what we enjoy on the BL
> list.

> Bugs are rather few and far between, and are dealt with remarkably
> quickly.

Glad to hear it works better now. Does Arachne handle javascript at all
yet? SSL? Did the linux version materialize?


> Regards,
> Ron

[Ron Clarke]

Hi Sindi,

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 04:25:02 +0000 (UTC)
sindi keesan <***@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Ron Clarke wrote:
>
> >> I found Arachne much more confusing and somewhat buggy.
> >
> > How long has it been since you last tried Arachne ?
>
> Version 8, a couple of years ago?

Much has changed since then. For a start, it has gone GPL, and Michael Polak is no longer concerned with the development of Arachne.

> I got annoyed when I offered to fix the English, in fact I sent him a file
> of suggested grammatical corrections and it never got corrected.

Michael was never very good at English grammar, but there is an opening for editing the documentation and volunteers would be welcomed with enthusiasm.

> Steven aims at perfection.

So does Glenn McCorkle, who has taken over control of the development team.

> > Bugs are rather few and far between, and are dealt with remarkably
> > quickly.
>
> Glad to hear it works better now. Does Arachne handle javascript at all
> yet?

No, and we don't see that hapening in the forseeable future, but she does ignore it with more style.

> SSL?

Sort of. It uses a helper program as a plug-in - doslynx, as it happens, and it works quite well.

> Did the linux version materialize?

No, not beyond what Michael Polak did. It just about functions, but with huge memory leaks that cause a lock-up very quickly. Not a viable option at the moment.

But the DOS version has become very stable, quite fast, and with three or four development threads happening at the same time. The "official" latest version will always be found at:
http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/arachne/

And the list of available plug-ins continues to grow.

Regards,
Ron


--
Ron Clarke
AUSREG Consultancy http://www.ausreg.com
Tadpole Tunes http://www.tadpoletunes.com
This mail sent to you from sylpheed running on penguin-power

[sindi keesan]

I will look at the 'new' Arachne some time. Thanks for the info.


>> Glad to hear it works better now. Does Arachne handle javascript at all
>> yet?
>
> No, and we don't see that hapening in the forseeable future, but she does ignore it with more style.
>
>> SSL?

> Sort of. It uses a helper program as a plug-in - doslynx, as it
> happens, and it works quite well.

I prefer a text-only browser most of the time so I use lynx itself, and
Opera only if I need javascript. I also have lynx (in linux) set to use
graphical links as a downloader (plugin) if I really need embedded
images or rudimentary javascript.

>> Did the linux version materialize?
>

> No, not beyond what Michael Polak did. It just about functions, but
> with huge memory leaks that cause a lock-up very quickly. Not a viable
> option at the moment.
I won't try it, thanks.

> But the DOS version has become very stable, quite fast, and with three
> or four development threads happening at the same time. The "official"
> latest version will always be found at:
> http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/arachne/

> And the list of available plug-ins continues to grow.
Such as?

> Regards,
> Ron
>
>
> --
> Ron Clarke
> AUSREG Consultancy http://www.ausreg.com
> Tadpole Tunes http://www.tadpoletunes.com
> This mail sent to you from sylpheed running on penguin-power
>
> -----------------------
> BasicLinux mailing list
> -----------------------
> http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/baslinux/
> ------------------------------------
> To exit, send subject=unsubscribe to
> baslinux-***@lists.ibiblio.org
>

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Ron Clarke]

Hi Sindi,

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:09:07 +0000 (UTC)
sindi keesan <***@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote:

> I will look at the 'new' Arachne some time. Thanks for the info.
>
> > But the DOS version has become very stable, quite fast, and with three
> > or four development threads happening at the same time. The "official"
> > latest version will always be found at:
> > http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/arachne/
>
> > And the list of available plug-ins continues to grow.
> Such as?

Have a look in: http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/apm

There are also plenty of "non-official" apm (APM = Arachne Package Manager files = plug-ins),
including a news reader, a comprehensive bookmark and email adress manager, a CD player, and more.
There is even a pdf reader apm, based on Ghostscript 7.05 (for DOS), that worked for me out-of-the-box.

I have completely lost count of all of them.

Regards,
Ron

--
Ron Clarke
AUSREG Consultancy http://www.ausreg.com
Tadpole Tunes http://www.tadpoletunes.com
This mail sent to you from sylpheed running on penguin-power

[sindi keesan]

> There is even a pdf reader apm, based on Ghostscript 7.05 (for DOS),
> that worked for me out-of-the-box.

I have (I was a beta tester) Ghostscript 8.50 for DOS based on Allegro
fonts, that lets you read pdf 1.5 and display things in very high
resolution. And DOS netpbm (parts of it).

> Regards,
> Ron

Sindi

[Greg Mayman]

On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:53:22 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

> I found Arachne much more confusing and somewhat buggy. BL1 worked for me
> right away when I read the instructions to install it to hard drive.

Arachne worked for me right away when I installed it, once I
found out the stuff I needed to give the wizard.

Most of the problems with Arachne have their solutions already
documented somewhere in those files that come with the
installation package. Not all, but most of them.

Of course the documentation is a bit of a mess and could benefit
with tidying up, but there is one heck of a lot of stuff in
there.

The examples files alone told me more than I needed to know about
writing a simple HTML file, with just a few whistles and bells.

>>> This email sent from a 1Mby 20Mhz 80286.... who needs more ?
> I have sent emails from an XT with no hard drive. Is that all you want to
> do with your computer?

No, ma'am! I wanna do one heck of a lot more, including up- and
downloading files, writing HTML pages and testing them, and so
on. And that's just the stuff I can do with Arachne.

Other than that, there is one heck of a lot on my machine that I
use regularly, and one heck of a lot more that I use just
occasionally. And all of it apart from a few tiny bits is
DOS-based.

> I hear that later computers were more energy efficient.

The laptops may be. But those big boxes that run 24/7 just gotta
use more power than my older units that run maybe 3-4 hours a day
max, and are powered off at the wall outlet the rest of the time.

> Welcome back to the list.

Thank you.

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[sindi keesan]

>
>>>> This email sent from a 1Mby 20Mhz 80286.... who needs more ?
>> I have sent emails from an XT with no hard drive. Is that all you want to
>> do with your computer?
>
> No, ma'am! I wanna do one heck of a lot more, including up- and
> downloading files, writing HTML pages and testing them, and so
> on. And that's just the stuff I can do with Arachne.

All of that can be done with the 2-floppy BL3. Or with DOS lynx (add
lxpic to view images on another page) and ftp and a text editor.

>> I hear that later computers were more energy efficient.
>
> The laptops may be. But those big boxes that run 24/7 just gotta
> use more power than my older units that run maybe 3-4 hours a day
> max, and are powered off at the wall outlet the rest of the time.

I turn off all my computers when they are not in use. With the power
switch on the front of the case (or I pull the plug when I want to work on
the newer ones, which are not really off otherwise).

ATX power supplies are a nuisance.

> . ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v


Sindi

[James Miller]

On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 02:44:12AM +1030, Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> No, ma'am! I wanna do one heck of a lot more, including up- and
> downloading files, writing HTML pages and testing them, and so
> on. And that's just the stuff I can do with Arachne.
>
> Other than that, there is one heck of a lot on my machine that I
> use regularly, and one heck of a lot more that I use just
> occasionally. And all of it apart from a few tiny bits is
> DOS-based.

It sounds to me that, from this description of your needs, you'd probably be best served by
using BL with an expanded loop file system. In other words, in place of the 20 MB loop file
the stock testing version of BL gives you, you'd create a 50 MB (or perhaps larger, since
Sindi seems to be claiming it can be even 100 MB) loop file. Then you'd copy the contents of
the stock loop file (called fs.img) to the 50 MB (or >) loop file, the latter of which would
then become your BL system. You could almost certainly install all of the pre-packaged BL
utilities in that amount of space. Depending on how much file storage you're planning to do,
that might be as much space as you'd need. And remember that you'd always have access while
using BL to your DOS filesystem and you could save files to it (you'd have to observe DOS 8
- 3 file naming conventions, though). When you're through working in BL you reboot your
machine and you're back in DOS.

It's a bit complicated/convoluted to make the new, larger loop file and copy everything over
to it from the stock loop file, but it's been discussed at some length and information can
be found in the list archives. Folks here can chip in with pointers on how to do it as well.
Let us know if you'd like any help with that.

James

[Ron Clarke]

Hi Folks,

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 19:03:26 -0600, James Miller wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 02:44:12AM +1030, Greg Mayman wrote:

>> Other than that, there is one heck of a lot on my machine that I
>> use regularly, and one heck of a lot more that I use just
>> occasionally. And all of it apart from a few tiny bits is
>> DOS-based.

> It sounds to me that, from this description of your needs, you'd probably be
> best served by
> using BL with an expanded loop file system. In other words, in place of the 20
> MB loop file
> the stock testing version of BL gives you, you'd create a 50 MB (or perhaps
> larger, since
> Sindi seems to be claiming it can be even 100 MB) loop file. Then you'd copy the
> contents of
> the stock loop file (called fs.img) to the 50 MB (or >) loop file, the latter of
> which would
> then become your BL system. You could almost certainly install all of the
> pre-packaged BL
> utilities in that amount of space. Depending on how much file storage you're
> planning to do,
> that might be as much space as you'd need.

In the interests of getting a "playable" example of an enlarged fs.img
for Greg (or anybody else) to play with, I have already made one
"pre-digested" loop fs.img of 50 MB, and put some demonstration stuff into
it. The zipped file (fs.zip) is up on my website at:
http://www.ausreg.com/files/
but be warned, it is a 28 MB download.

Regards,
Ron



Ron Clarke
AUSREG Consultancy http://www.ausreg.com
Tadpole Tunes http://www.tadpoletunes.com
-- This mail was written by a user of the Arachne Browser - http://arachne.cz/

[Greg Mayman]

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:09:07 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

> I prefer a text-only browser most of the time so I use lynx itself, and
> Opera only if I need javascript. I also have lynx (in linux) set to use
> graphical links as a downloader (plugin) if I really need embedded
> images or rudimentary javascript.

I prefer a text-only browser too, so I run Arachne with
auto-download of images turned off.

But on some sites, I get a lot of image blocks all over the
screen, similar to the [IMG] links that we get with lynx,
although Arachne will display any alternate text that is behind
the image.

If you have ever struck this with lynx you will know how hard it
is to work out what links do which.

With Arachne, I can hit the Insert key which tells it to download
all images (slow), or I can right-click on one of the image
blocks and download just that one (much quicker). Usually I can
guess which are the links I want by their relative positions on
the screen.

The other thing I love about Arachne is that it is an integrated
browser and mail handler.


. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> I prefer a text-only browser too, so I run Arachne with
> auto-download of images turned off.

Opera (for BL3) also has that option.

> The other thing I love about Arachne is that it is an
> integrated browser and mail handler.

Opera is too.

Cheers,
Steven

[Ron Clarke]

Hi Folks,

On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:52:10 +1030
"Greg Mayman" <***@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> The other thing I love about Arachne is that it is an integrated
> browser and mail handler.

Yeah, me too. Have done for years. :)

OTOH, I also have Links2 and Sylpheed set up so that they call each other when required. When reading an email, if I double click on a hyperlink - Links2 will take me there. And if I am browsing a website and click on a "mailto:" link - sylpheed loads a compose screen including the email address. It is just a matter of setting the parameters to do so.

Regards,
Ron

--
Ron Clarke
AUSREG Consultancy http://www.ausreg.com
Tadpole Tunes http://www.tadpoletunes.com
This mail sent to you from sylpheed running on penguin-power

[sindi keesan]

On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Greg Mayman wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:09:07 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:
>
>> I prefer a text-only browser most of the time so I use lynx itself, and
>> Opera only if I need javascript. I also have lynx (in linux) set to use
>> graphical links as a downloader (plugin) if I really need embedded
>> images or rudimentary javascript.
>
> I prefer a text-only browser too, so I run Arachne with
> auto-download of images turned off.
>
> But on some sites, I get a lot of image blocks all over the
> screen, similar to the [IMG] links that we get with lynx,
> although Arachne will display any alternate text that is behind
> the image.
>
> If you have ever struck this with lynx you will know how hard it
> is to work out what links do which.
>
> With Arachne, I can hit the Insert key which tells it to download
> all images (slow), or I can right-click on one of the image
> blocks and download just that one (much quicker). Usually I can
> guess which are the links I want by their relative positions on
> the screen.

For Opera it is Shift-G, which they don't put on the menu in recent
versions. Or right click and 'reload' (load, in older versions).
Links and lynx will display individual images, or set up lynx with links2
-g (graphical) to reload the page with embedded images.

Links2 in graphical mode can be set to display all or no images and I
think to also load one image at a time. It does some javascript.

> The other thing I love about Arachne is that it is an integrated
> browser and mail handler.
So is Opera. So is lynx or links, if you use webmail.

>
> . ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v
>
>
> -----------------------
> BasicLinux mailing list
> -----------------------
> http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/baslinux/
> ------------------------------------
> To exit, send subject=unsubscribe to
> baslinux-***@lists.ibiblio.org
>

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Greg Mayman]

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 23:55:52 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

>>>>> This email sent from a 1Mby 20Mhz 80286.... who needs more ?
>>> I have sent emails from an XT with no hard drive. Is that all you want to
>>> do with your computer?
>> No, ma'am! I wanna do one heck of a lot more, including up- and
>> downloading files, writing HTML pages and testing them, and so
>> on. And that's just the stuff I can do with Arachne.
> All of that can be done with the 2-floppy BL3. Or with DOS lynx (add
> lxpic to view images on another page) and ftp and a text editor.

Ha! You guessed correctly that I am writing HTML with a text
editor. Is there any other way, if you wish to avoid the bloat
that usually goes into these pages?

But it is the "and so on" that will prevent me from giving up
DOS.

This includes several registered or freeware programs that I use
regularly, that have never been released for Linux.

And countless utilities...

Yes, I am interested in what Linux can do for me.

But No, I will not be totally abandoning DOS.

> I turn off all my computers when they are not in use. With the power
> switch on the front of the case (or I pull the plug when I want to work on
> the newer ones, which are not really off otherwise).

On my (mostly) DOS computer, the front panel switch also controls
an outlet on the back. This powers the monitor, the 9-pin impact
printer and the external modem. So the whole lot goes off as one.

> ATX power supplies are a nuisance.

But the switch on the wall outlet does the job on my Win
computer, and also controls the scanner/printer and the monitor
for that comp.

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[sindi keesan]

On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Greg Mayman wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 23:55:52 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:
.......>
>> All of that can be done with the 2-floppy BL3. Or with DOS lynx (add
>> lxpic to view images on another page) and ftp and a text editor.
>
> Ha! You guessed correctly that I am writing HTML with a text
> editor. Is there any other way, if you wish to avoid the bloat
> that usually goes into these pages?

I once counted keystrokes needed to use an HTML editor versus a text
editor. You can guess which won.

> But it is the "and so on" that will prevent me from giving up
> DOS.
>
> This includes several registered or freeware programs that I use
> regularly, that have never been released for Linux.

I also use DOS, for wordprocessing, a database program, and to print mail
from my shell account, and for CAD. THe linux programs are too new and
therefore too big and bulky.
>

> But No, I will not be totally abandoning DOS.
Another reason to choose BL and use loadlin.

^>
>> I turn off all my computers when they are not in use. With the power
>> switch on the front of the case (or I pull the plug when I want to work on
>> the newer ones, which are not really off otherwise).
>
> On my (mostly) DOS computer, the front panel switch also controls
> an outlet on the back. This powers the monitor, the 9-pin impact
> printer and the external modem. So the whole lot goes off as one.

We use a power strip. WIth an AT power supply you can plug things into
the computer but not with ATX.

>
>> ATX power supplies are a nuisance.
>
> But the switch on the wall outlet does the job on my Win
> computer, and also controls the scanner/printer and the monitor
> for that comp.
If you want them all to come on at once.


> . ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v

[Greg Mayman]

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 19:03:26 -0600, James Miller wrote:

> It sounds to me that, from this description of your needs, you'd probably be
> best served by
> using BL with an expanded loop file system. In other words, in place of the 20
> MB loop file

I'll probably create a partition for BL as soon as I am a bit more
familiar with it.

Why wait? Because I'm cautious, and I don't need to create a separate
partition for it right now.

But I cannot see the time that I will ever abandon DOS. I have just too
much software that I rely on, and which is not available for Linux.


. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[James Miller]

On Wed, Jan 03, 2007 at 02:23:51AM +1030, Greg Mayman wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 19:03:26 -0600, James Miller wrote:
>
> > It sounds to me that, from this description of your needs, you'd probably be
> > best served by
> > using BL with an expanded loop file system. In other words, in place of the 20
> > MB loop file
>
> I'll probably create a partition for BL as soon as I am a bit more
> familiar with it.

If you are confident in your partitioning skills and want to get maximum space for BL, that
may be the way to go. But this highlights another advantage to the loop-file method (which
I've been referring to as the "testing system"): on a DOS/Win system you can run Linux using
the loop file without having to disprupt your partitioning scheme or taking associated risks
of corrupting or destroying existing data. Anyway, the choice of which to use is yours. Btw,
how are you going to get more familiar with BL without using it? If you're looking for a
more capable testing system, I suppose you saw Ron's post about an expanded loop file he had
created and made available for download. Using that would be a good way to familiarize
yourself better with BL, and that might sufficiently address the space problems you were
having with the stock testing system (i.e., the 20 MB loop file).

James

[sindi keesan]

I suppose you saw Ron's post about an expanded loop file he had
> created and made available for download. Using that would be a good way to familiarize
> yourself better with BL, and that might sufficiently address the space problems you were
> having with the stock testing system (i.e., the 20 MB loop file).
>
> James

Even with broadband it might be faster to make your own 100MB loop file
than to download 28MB. It is in the archives in several places.
Sindi

[Greg Mayman]

On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 00:47:37 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

> For Opera it is Shift-G, which they don't put on the menu in recent
> versions. Or right click and 'reload' (load, in older versions).

I used Opera 3.6.2 several years ago on Win311, but i don't remember
much about it. But I'm pretty sure it didn't do full email. I had to
load Foxmail for that.

> Links and lynx will display individual images, or set up lynx with links2
> -g (graphical) to reload the page with embedded images.

There ya go! I really do need to learn a lot!

> Links2 in graphical mode can be set to display all or no images and I
> think to also load one image at a time. It does some javascript.

That's one step above Arachne. How is it with secure sites?

>> The other thing I love about Arachne is that it is an integrated
>> browser and mail handler.
> So is Opera. So is lynx or links, if you use webmail.

I don't know webmail. What is it?

I am used to downloading my incoming mail, reading and answerring it
offline, then uploading the outgoing at the next connect.

Learning something different is.... well, not quite impossible <GGGGG>

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> I used Opera 3.6.2 several years ago on Win311,
> but i don't remember much about it. But I'm pretty
> sure it didn't do full email. I had to load Foxmail
> for that.

I'm running Opera 8.52 (on BL2) and it definitely
sends/receives/reads/composes email.

Cheers,
Steven

[sindi keesan]

On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Greg Mayman wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 00:47:37 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:
>
>> For Opera it is Shift-G, which they don't put on the menu in recent
>> versions. Or right click and 'reload' (load, in older versions).
>
> I used Opera 3.6.2 several years ago on Win311, but i don't remember
> much about it. But I'm pretty sure it didn't do full email. I had to
> load Foxmail for that.

Version 7 does mail, so does 8. They are up to 9 now.

>> Links2 in graphical mode can be set to display all or no images and I
>> think to also load one image at a time. It does some javascript.
>
> That's one step above Arachne. How is it with secure sites?

Not so good. Use lynx or opera. I set lynx up with links (graphical and
text-only) as a downloader to view sites that need tables. Is there a way
to use lynx as a downloader (external program) in links?

I set both lynx and links to use mplayer on streaming audio, and zgv as
viewer (or xli in X). Links is set to use pmail at mailto:, could not
figure out lynx.

>> So is Opera. So is lynx or links, if you use webmail.
>
> I don't know webmail. What is it?

See fastmail.fm No need to download, probably faster if you use dialup.
gmail yahoo mail pobox.sk Search on 'free mail'. ISPs also offer it.
No viruses.

> I am used to downloading my incoming mail, reading and answerring it
> offline, then uploading the outgoing at the next connect.
>
POP mail

Send $1 to sdf.lonestar.org to read mail with mutt or pine and reply
online, or use webmail (slow).
Sindi


> . ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v

[Greg Mayman]

On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 16:37:33 -0600, James Miller wrote:

> If you are confident in your partitioning skills and want to get maximum space
> for BL, that
> may be the way to go. But this highlights another advantage to the loop-file
> method (which
> I've been referring to as the "testing system"): on a DOS/Win system you can run
> Linux using
> the loop file without having to disprupt your partitioning scheme or taking
> associated risks
> of corrupting or destroying existing data. Anyway, the choice of which to use is
> yours. Btw,

Yes, those were EXACTLY my thoughts too.

And with the expanded 50m loop version that I have just
downloaded from Ron Clarke's site, I will have more room to
play around.

> how are you going to get more familiar with BL without using it?

Well, naturally I can't. I have the BL1 FAQ file plus anther file
of 30+ common commands, that I can read through and try.


. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[Greg Mayman]

On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 04:03:04 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

> I once counted keystrokes needed to use an HTML editor versus a text
> editor. You can guess which won.

I once downloaded an HTML editor, but I never bothered trying to learn
how to use it.

Have you ever counted the bytes in the output of one of these editors
versus bare bones HTML from a text editor?

> I also use DOS, for wordprocessing, a database program, and to print mail
> from my shell account, and for CAD. THe linux programs are too new and
> therefore too big and bulky.

>> But No, I will not be totally abandoning DOS.
> Another reason to choose BL and use loadlin.

Yes, ma'am!

> We use a power strip. WIth an AT power supply you can plug things into
> the computer but not with ATX.

That's what I'm doing with the DOS/BL computer. With the Win comp, it is
powered from one of those strips plugged into the wall outlet.

>> But the switch on the wall outlet does the job on my Win
>> computer, and also controls the scanner/printer and the monitor
>> for that comp.
> If you want them all to come on at once.

I want the monitor, of course.

And it is too complicated to arrange a second switched outlet for the
printer/scanner.



. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[sindi keesan]

>>> But the switch on the wall outlet does the job on my Win
>>> computer, and also controls the scanner/printer and the monitor
>>> for that comp.
>> If you want them all to come on at once.
>
> I want the monitor, of course.
>
> And it is too complicated to arrange a second switched outlet for the
> printer/scanner.

Does your printer have a power switch? I plug mine directly into the wall
and use the power switch, or use one of those strips that lets you power
on each device separately or power them all off at once.

>
>
> . ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v
>
>
> -----------------------
> BasicLinux mailing list
> -----------------------
> http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/baslinux/
> ------------------------------------
> To exit, send subject=unsubscribe to
> baslinux-***@lists.ibiblio.org
>

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Greg Mayman]

On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 04:05:04 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

> I suppose you saw Ron's post about an expanded loop file he had
>> created and made available for download. Using that would be a good way to
>> familiarize
>> yourself better with BL, and that might sufficiently address the space problems
>> you were
>> having with the stock testing system (i.e., the 20 MB loop file).

>> James

> Even with broadband it might be faster to make your own 100MB loop file
> than to download 28MB. It is in the archives in several places.

Done it now. Two hours, 20 minutes, almost to the dot!

And I need time to sort through the archives, and to work out what to
look for. I can imagine two hours going by just like THAT! without
finding what I want.



. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[Greg Mayman]

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:55:27 +1300, 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:

> Greg Mayman wrote:

>> I used Opera 3.6.2 several years ago on Win311,
>> but i don't remember much about it. But I'm pretty
>> sure it didn't do full email. I had to load Foxmail
>> for that.

> I'm running Opera 8.52 (on BL2) and it definitely
> sends/receives/reads/composes email.

Thanks for that. I'll make a note to look into it.


. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[Greg Mayman]

On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:44:13 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

>> I used Opera 3.6.2 several years ago on Win311, but i don't remember
>> much about it. But I'm pretty sure it didn't do full email. I had to
>> load Foxmail for that.
> Version 7 does mail, so does 8. They are up to 9 now.

I found the Opera site and I'll download it when I get some time.

Opera 9 for Linux is only about 5.5Mb. That's tiny compared with most
Windoze stuff!!!!

>>> Links2 in graphical mode can be set to display all or no images and I
>>> think to also load one image at a time. It does some javascript.
>> That's one step above Arachne. How is it with secure sites?
> Not so good. Use lynx or opera. I set lynx up with links (graphical and
> text-only) as a downloader to view sites that need tables. Is there a way
> to use lynx as a downloader (external program) in links?
> I set both lynx and links to use mplayer on streaming audio, and zgv as
> viewer (or xli in X). Links is set to use pmail at mailto:, could not
> figure out lynx.

I hear what you say. I know the words, but I have no idea of how to
impliment something like that for myself.

I'm still trying to figure out the basics of BL3. For now I gotta go
_real_ slooooow until I know what I'm doing.

Ron Clarke's 50Mb loop version is giving me some problems which I
have had to refer back to him to sort out. Almost certainly the
stuff in it needs tweaking for my system, but I have no idea
where to start.

>> I don't know webmail. What is it?
> See fastmail.fm No need to download

You mean I gotta do it all ON LINE ?!?!?! *E*G*A*D*!!!!

>> I am used to downloading my incoming mail, reading and answerring it
>> offline, then uploading the outgoing at the next connect.
> POP mail

That's the one!

> Send $1 to sdf.lonestar.org to read mail with mutt or pine and reply
> online

Sheesh! I spend an hour or two each day on my mail. My ISP costs me
AU$1.10 an hour. That would mount up to over $30 a month just for
email! It's not within my income :-(((((

I'll stick to reading and answering offline.

In fact I couldn't have written the message I sent to Ron Clarke
about my problems with his 50MB loop version if I had been doing
it online, as I had to keep going from BL3 to DOS to write up the
notes, then back again to test something else.

Eventually I did wake up to the fact that I could edit the
message from mc which saved a lot of rebooting, but I still would
not have been able to do it with online messaging.

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[sindi keesan]

On Thu, 4 Jan 2007, Greg Mayman wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:44:13 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:
>
>>> I used Opera 3.6.2 several years ago on Win311, but i don't remember
>>> much about it. But I'm pretty sure it didn't do full email. I had to
>>> load Foxmail for that.
>> Version 7 does mail, so does 8. They are up to 9 now.
>
> I found the Opera site and I'll download it when I get some time.
>
> Opera 9 for Linux is only about 5.5Mb. That's tiny compared with most
> Windoze stuff!!!!

Please let me know if Opera 9 works with glibc 2.2.5. The one I
downloaded needed 3.2.3. You need to choose carefully.


>>>> Links2 in graphical mode can be set to display all or no images and I
>>>> think to also load one image at a time. It does some javascript.
>>> That's one step above Arachne. How is it with secure sites?
>> Not so good. Use lynx or opera. I set lynx up with links (graphical and
>> text-only) as a downloader to view sites that need tables. Is there a way
>> to use lynx as a downloader (external program) in links?
>> I set both lynx and links to use mplayer on streaming audio, and zgv as
>> viewer (or xli in X). Links is set to use pmail at mailto:, could not
>> figure out lynx.
>
> I hear what you say. I know the words, but I have no idea of how to
> impliment something like that for myself.

I think I posted my lynx.cfg at http://keesan.freeshell.org/bl/lynx.cfg
and I can post the .linksrc if you want. Edit yours to be similar (or
copy over mine).

> Sheesh! I spend an hour or two each day on my mail. My ISP costs me
> AU$1.10 an hour. That would mount up to over $30 a month just for
> email! It's not within my income :-(((((

We in the US pay per month, not per hour.

> I'll stick to reading and answering offline.
>
> In fact I couldn't have written the message I sent to Ron Clarke
> about my problems with his 50MB loop version if I had been doing
> it online, as I had to keep going from BL3 to DOS to write up the
> notes, then back again to test something else.

Try DOSEMU. David Moberg compiled it for libc6. You can upgrade to the
Slackware 8.1 or 9.0 glibc.so package. Don't you have two computers?

> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia

You can write emails with pmail (using the BL3 default text editor).
Sindi

[James Miller]

On Thu, Jan 04, 2007 at 02:26:11PM +0000, sindi keesan wrote:
> >
> > I found the Opera site and I'll download it when I get some time.
> >
> > Opera 9 for Linux is only about 5.5Mb. That's tiny compared with most
> > Windoze stuff!!!!
>
> Please let me know if Opera 9 works with glibc 2.2.5. The one I
> downloaded needed 3.2.3. You need to choose carefully.

I'll do a bit of translation for the inexperienced Linux user here. Linux updates its
libraries regularly. Libraries are files that programs need to run, and which can be used by
several programs at the same time. I think they are sometimes called "shared libraries" and
they are probably similar to what are known as ".dll" files under Win (my understanding of
libraries is pretty rudimentary: anyone is welcome to offer corrections and/or
clarifications). BL3 is based on a really old set of libraries. It's libraries are libc5,
which was current in the late 90's. For this reason, many newer Linux programs refuse to run
and/or compile under BL3. Long and short of this is that we have to be picky about what
programs we install under BL3. The add-ons linked to from Steven's site are all safe, as are
the programs various BL users have compiled and make available at their download sites.
Stuff from Slackware Version 4 and earlier also usually works fine. Anything newer is
suspect, though.

I should mention that there is a way people using BL have managed to run newer programs
though, and that involves upgrading BL's libraries to newer ones. I believe a few people
(Sindi, Steven?) have upgraded their BL 3 libraries by installing libraries from Slackware
8.1 (ca. 2002?). On this scenario, one keeps existing BL libraries, but adds newer ones as
well, thus allowing the running of newer programs that otherwise would not work on BL3. I
think Sindi is saying above that, even with the newer, Slack 8.1 libraries installed, she
was unable to run the latest Opera under BL3 (correct me if I'm wrong, Sindi). Be aware that
adding libraries takes up further disk space, of which you have a limited quantity.

The upshot of all this is that you likely would not be able to run the latest Opera under
BL3. Almost certainly you'd have to download an older version of Opera, and even then you'd
likely need to upgrade your libraries before it would run. Sindi and/or Steven should be
able to provide more detail on how to do this and which version of Opera to choose.

Btw, you never told us specs for your machine. Newer versions of Opera require a bit of
processing and memory umph. I'd say nothing less than about a P2 with 64 MB of RAM would be
required. Does your system meet those specs?

James

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

James Miller wrote:
>
> I believe a few people (Sindi, Steven?) have upgraded their
> BL 3 libraries by installing libraries from Slackware 8.1

The libraries from Slackware 9.0 are the best for BL3.
Full instructions are at the Bl3 site.

> The upshot of all this is that you likely would not be able
> to run the latest Opera under BL3.

That is correct.

> Almost certainly you'd have to download an older version
> of Opera, and even then you'd likely need to upgrade your
> libraries before it would run.

Opera 8 works with the libraries from Slackware 9.0

> Sindi and/or Steven should be able to provide more detail
> on how to do this and which version of Opera to choose.

Instructions for installing Opera 8 are at the BL3 site.

> Newer versions of Opera require a bit of processing and
> memory umph. I'd say nothing less than about a P2 with
> 64 MB of RAM would be required.

I don't think a P2 is necessary. A 166-MMX with 32mb RAM
(and 64mb swap) is probably sufficient. It won't be lightning
fast, but it should be useable.

Cheers,
Steven

[sindi keesan]

> Opera 8 works with the libraries from Slackware 9.0
Or slackware 8.1 if you choose the proper download package.


>> Sindi and/or Steven should be able to provide more detail
>> on how to do this and which version of Opera to choose.

> Instructions for installing Opera 8 are at the BL3 site.
>
>> Newer versions of Opera require a bit of processing and
>> memory umph. I'd say nothing less than about a P2 with
>> 64 MB of RAM would be required.

Opera 6 worked in 16MB but crashed often on a 486.

On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:

> James Miller wrote:
>>
>> I believe a few people (Sindi, Steven?) have upgraded their
>> BL 3 libraries by installing libraries from Slackware 8.1
>
> The libraries from Slackware 9.0 are the best for BL3.
> Full instructions are at the Bl3 site.
>
>> The upshot of all this is that you likely would not be able
>> to run the latest Opera under BL3.
>
> That is correct.
>
>> Almost certainly you'd have to download an older version
>> of Opera, and even then you'd likely need to upgrade your
>> libraries before it would run.

> I don't think a P2 is necessary. A 166-MMX with 32mb RAM
> (and 64mb swap) is probably sufficient. It won't be lightning
> fast, but it should be useable.


Alt-P preferences, set it to not display images (probably under Advanced)
and then Shift G will load the images.

>
> Cheers,
> Steven
>
>
>
> -----------------------
> BasicLinux mailing list
> -----------------------
> http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/baslinux/
> ------------------------------------
> To exit, send subject=unsubscribe to
> baslinux-***@lists.ibiblio.org
>

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

sindi keesan wrote:
>
> > Opera 9 for Linux is only about 5.5Mb. That's tiny compared with most
> > Windoze stuff!!!!
>
> Please let me know if Opera 9 works with glibc 2.2.5.

Please do not encourage Greg to try Opera 9 on BL3.
It will probably not work. The recommended Opera
for BL3 is Opera 8 (as per the instructions on the
BL3 site).

Cheers,
Steven

[sindi keesan]

On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:

> sindi keesan wrote:
>>
>>> Opera 9 for Linux is only about 5.5Mb. That's tiny compared with most
>>> Windoze stuff!!!!
>>
>> Please let me know if Opera 9 works with glibc 2.2.5.
>
> Please do not encourage Greg to try Opera 9 on BL3.
> It will probably not work. The recommended Opera
> for BL3 is Opera 8 (as per the instructions on the
> BL3 site).
I am not encouraging him. What I downloaded needed later libraries from
Slackware 10, which will not work with the 2.2.26 kernel.

If he wants to download this anyway (he got 28MB of fs.img via dialup)
get the Slackware 8.1 version or the oldest Redhat version (6?) and let us
know if that works with glibc from Slackware 9.0 or earlier.

> Cheers,
> Steven
>
>
>
> -----------------------
> BasicLinux mailing list
> -----------------------
> http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/baslinux/
> ------------------------------------
> To exit, send subject=unsubscribe to
> baslinux-***@lists.ibiblio.org
>

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Greg Mayman]

On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:46:28 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

> Does your printer have a power switch?

Yes, an electronic one. Every time the power is applied it turns itself
on and I have to use the pushbutton to turn it off. Most times I just
don't bother and I leave it on.

> I plug mine directly into the wall
> and use the power switch, or use one of those strips that lets you power
> on each device separately or power them all off at once.

I could really do with one of those strips with separate switching for
each outlet.

Last time, I made up an eight-way one with four dual outlets screwed to
a length of timber that I channeled out the back of for the wiring.

But I've used up all the outlets....

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[sindi keesan]

On Thu, 4 Jan 2007, Greg Mayman wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:46:28 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:
>
>> Does your printer have a power switch?
>
> Yes, an electronic one. Every time the power is applied it turns itself
> on and I have to use the pushbutton to turn it off. Most times I just
> don't bother and I leave it on.

Does it work with BL?

>> I plug mine directly into the wall
>> and use the power switch, or use one of those strips that lets you power
>> on each device separately or power them all off at once.
>
> I could really do with one of those strips with separate switching for
> each outlet.
>
> Last time, I made up an eight-way one with four dual outlets screwed to
> a length of timber that I channeled out the back of for the wiring.
>
> But I've used up all the outlets....
Hardware stores sell them.
Sindi

>
> . ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v
>
>
> -----------------------
> BasicLinux mailing list
> -----------------------
> http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/baslinux/
> ------------------------------------
> To exit, send subject=unsubscribe to
> baslinux-***@lists.ibiblio.org
>

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Greg Mayman]

On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:26:11 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

> Please let me know if Opera 9 works with glibc 2.2.5. The one I
> downloaded needed 3.2.3. You need to choose carefully.

Sorry, you've completely baffled me there.

I'll forget about Opera until I understand a bit more.

> We in the US pay per month, not per hour.

As it is with almost all the ISPs here.

But paying by the hour with this ISP is cheaper, if I keep my usage down.

I have a by-the-month account with another ISP for when I want to make
longer connections, but most people know the email address to the hourly
rate one, and it's too much trouble to get all of them to change.



. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[sindi keesan]

On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Greg Mayman wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:26:11 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:
>
>> Please let me know if Opera 9 works with glibc 2.2.5. The one I
>> downloaded needed 3.2.3. You need to choose carefully.
>
> Sorry, you've completely baffled me there.

If you download Opera, get one for Slackware 8.1 (or 9.0), and you will
also need to add the library files in Steven's xlibs.tgz package (or some
similar name) and the Slackware 8.1 (or 9.0) glibc solibs package, or at
least a few library files from it. Slackware 8.1 has version glibc 2.2.5,
and what I downloaded would only work with a later version 3.2.3, and that
version of the library will not work with the BL kernel, so it gets
complicated.

I know Opera 8.54 for Slackware 8.1 will work (with the added X libraries
and glibc files).

> I'll forget about Opera until I understand a bit more.
>
>> We in the US pay per month, not per hour.
>
> As it is with almost all the ISPs here.
>
> But paying by the hour with this ISP is cheaper, if I keep my usage down.
We can get five hours/day for $4/month from one place.

> I have a by-the-month account with another ISP for when I want to make
> longer connections, but most people know the email address to the hourly
> rate one, and it's too much trouble to get all of them to change.

It would be cheaper to write them all and have only one account.
>
>
> . ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v
>
>
> -----------------------
> BasicLinux mailing list
> -----------------------
> http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/baslinux/
> ------------------------------------
> To exit, send subject=unsubscribe to
> baslinux-***@lists.ibiblio.org
>

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Greg Mayman]

On Sun, 7 Jan 2007 23:33:52 +0000 (UTC)
sindi keesan <***@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote:

> If you download Opera, get one for Slackware 8.1 (or 9.0), and you will
> also need to add the library files in Steven's xlibs.tgz package (or some
> similar name) and the Slackware 8.1 (or 9.0) glibc solibs package, or at
> least a few library files from it. Slackware 8.1 has version glibc 2.2.5,
> and what I downloaded would only work with a later version 3.2.3, and that
> version of the library will not work with the BL kernel, so it gets
> complicated.
>
> I know Opera 8.54 for Slackware 8.1 will work (with the added X libraries
> and glibc files).

I think I understand most of that, but it's one heck of a lot for a new user to get his head around.

> We can get five hours/day for $4/month from one place.

I get unlimited access, in max 4 hr bloacks, for AU$5.85/month from the other ISP.

> It would be cheaper to write them all and have only one account.

Probably would. But the ones that would be real tricky are the services where I'm registered by my email address.

This is my first attempt at replying to an email in sylpheed.

I don't understand the editor. The backspace acts like forward-delete. I have to put it at the START of the stuff I want to remove, not at the end, and it works just like the Del key. I keep erasing the stuff I want to keep......

Sheesh! A whole paragraph disappeared just then when I pressed the Del key!!!!!!!

What gives? Have I set something wrongly?

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> > If you download Opera, get one for Slackware 8.1 (or 9.0),
> > and you will also need to add the library files in Steven's
> > xlibs.tgz package (or some similar name) and the Slackware 8.1
> > (or 9.0) glibc solibs package, or at least a few library files
> > from it.
>
> I think I understand most of that, but it's one heck of a lot
> for a new user to get his head around.

You will find a full explanation at the BL3 site.
Click on: "How to install Opera on BL3"

> This is my first attempt at replying to an email in sylpheed.
>
> I don't understand the editor. The backspace acts like
> forward-delete.

I'm using the Sylpheed editor right now (as I type this).
The backspace acts exactly like a backspace should.
Something is wrong with your setup. We should be able
to fix it.

> Sheesh! A whole paragraph disappeared just then when I
> pressed the Del key!!!!!!!

Did you have that paragraph highlighted? If a block of
text is highlighted, the delete key deletes all of it.

Cheers,
Steven

[James Miller]

On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 03:22:46PM +1300, 3aoo-***@dea.spamcon.org wrote:
> Greg Mayman wrote:
> >
> > This is my first attempt at replying to an email in sylpheed.
> >
> > I don't understand the editor. The backspace acts like
> > forward-delete.
>
> I'm using the Sylpheed editor right now (as I type this).
> The backspace acts exactly like a backspace should.
> Something is wrong with your setup. We should be able
> to fix it.

Sounds like maybe he has one of those non-standard keyboards (84-key or however many they
have) and that some key remapping may be required. Sindi has some experience with this. But
whether Greg will have the patience to diagnose the problem and apply the fix remains to be
seen. He might just want to stick with DOS (if it can do everything he needs to do with his
computer) or find an older version of Windows to install, which would be a relatively less
painful transition.

James

[sindi keesan]

>>> I don't understand the editor. The backspace acts like
>>> forward-delete.
>>
>> I'm using the Sylpheed editor right now (as I type this).
>> The backspace acts exactly like a backspace should.
>> Something is wrong with your setup. We should be able
>> to fix it.
>

> Sounds like maybe he has one of those non-standard keyboards (84-key or
> however many they

Look for xmodmap.84 at my site and I may have also posted instructions in
blfiles.htm for using it. It goes in .xinitrc and fixes the backspace
problem that we have with many of our keyboards, not just the 84-key
variety. But then only one set of the arrow keys works on a standard
keyboard. Someone else found a simpler way to remap the keyboard, more
recnelty.

> have) and that some key remapping may be required. Sindi has some experience with this. But
> whether Greg will have the patience to diagnose the problem and apply the fix remains to be
> seen. He might just want to stick with DOS (if it can do everything he needs to do with his
> computer) or find an older version of Windows to install, which would be a relatively less
> painful transition.
>
> James
>
> -----------------------
> BasicLinux mailing list
> -----------------------
> http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/baslinux/
> ------------------------------------
> To exit, send subject=unsubscribe to
> baslinux-***@lists.ibiblio.org
>

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Greg Mayman]

Further to my previous message damn! damn! damn! I mean reply but it won't backspace over it, and I'm not gunna put up with this shit much longer.....

I saved the reply by clicking on Send later and then wanted to add something but I can't open it for editing.

And there is nothing working under sylpheeds... make that sylpheed's help menu, except for about...

I have never used an editor that works as weirdly as this one.

Arrrrrgghhh.... why do I get mixed up in this kinda stuff.

Now I've downloaded all my mail with sylpheed, I can't transfer the messages over to Arachne to answer them with a half-way sensible editor!!!!!!!!!

[Ron Clarke]

Hi Greg,

On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 12:20:00 +0000
Greg Mayman <***@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> Now I've downloaded all my mail with sylpheed, I can't transfer the messages over to Arachne to answer them with a half-way sensible editor!!!!!!!!!

Yes you can, if that would be a help. :)

At the commandline, using mc, go into the inbox directory. there you will see files called: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc..

They are all email messages as ascii text.

Using the second panel of mc, navigate to your Arachne directory (e.g. c:\arachne\mail) and copy the files over. Rename the copied files in arachne\mail by giving each of them an extension of: .cnm

Now call up Arachne and look at your inbox.

Regards,
Ron

--
Ron Clarke
AUSREG Consultancy http://www.ausreg.com
Tadpole Tunes http://www.tadpoletunes.com
This mail sent to you from sylpheed running on penguin-power

[3***@dea.spamcon.org]

Greg Mayman wrote:
>
> I saved the reply by clicking on Send later and then wanted
> to add something but I can't open it for editing.

Click on "Message" and then on "Re-edit"

> I have never used an editor that works as weirdly as this one.

It shouldn't be that weird. Clearly something is wrong.

> Now I've downloaded all my mail with sylpheed, I can't transfer
> the messages over to Arachne to answer them with a half-way
> sensible editor!!!!!!!!!

You should find that mail in: /root/Mail/inbox
The numbered files are your individual messages.

Cheers,
Steven

[sindi keesan]

On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Greg Mayman wrote:

> Further to my previous message damn! damn! damn! I mean reply but it won't backspace over it, and I'm not gunna put up with this shit much longer.....


The backspace works properly with pmail (CLI text only mode).

Sindi

[Ron Clarke]

Hi Greg,

On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 08:17:23 +1030
"Greg Mayman" <***@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:26:11 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:
>
> > Please let me know if Opera 9 works with glibc 2.2.5. The one I
> > downloaded needed 3.2.3. You need to choose carefully.
>
> Sorry, you've completely baffled me there.
>
> I'll forget about Opera until I understand a bit more.

Very wise !

For Opera you will need a hard disk install as well as adding some extra libraries.
This is not applicable to someone getting a first look at Linux with a loop install.

> > We in the US pay per month, not per hour.
>
> As it is with almost all the ISPs here.
> But paying by the hour with this ISP is cheaper, if I keep my usage down.
> I have a by-the-month account with another ISP for when I want to make
> longer connections, but most people know the email address to the hourly
> rate one, and it's too much trouble to get all of them to change.

I have been in a similar position - in fact I still have four pay-by-the-hour ISP accounts each with several email addresses. So, in practice, I use only the paid-for by the month ISP to log on to the internet, but I can access each and every one of my other email accounts (by POP3/SMTP) from the one connection, both in DOS (Arachne) and in BasicLinux (Sylpheed).

That way I don't use up any extra hours that I would have to pay for, but I can still make full use of the various mail servers.

Regards,
Ron

--
Ron Clarke
AUSREG Consultancy http://www.ausreg.com
Tadpole Tunes http://www.tadpoletunes.com
This mail sent to you from sylpheed running on penguin-power

[Greg Mayman]

On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:26:57 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:

>>> Does your printer have a power switch?
>> Yes, an electronic one. Every time the power is applied it turns itself
>> on and I have to use the pushbutton to turn it off. Most times I just
>> don't bother and I leave it on.
> Does it work with BL?

Probably not. It's on a USB connection.

Steady on, Sindi! I'm not conversant enough with BL to try that kinda
stuff <GGGGG>


<RE: 4 way power strips with switches>
> Hardware stores sell them.

Yes, but the ones around here want more money that I'm prepared to pay.

. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[sindi keesan]

On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Greg Mayman wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:26:57 +0000 (UTC), sindi keesan wrote:
>
>>>> Does your printer have a power switch?
>>> Yes, an electronic one. Every time the power is applied it turns itself
>>> on and I have to use the pushbutton to turn it off. Most times I just
>>> don't bother and I leave it on.
>> Does it work with BL?
>
> Probably not. It's on a USB connection.

That might work if you change the kernel and modules, but I can't help you
with it. David Moberg might be able to. It can wait.

> Steady on, Sindi! I'm not conversant enough with BL to try that kinda
> stuff <GGGGG>
>

> <RE: 4 way power strips with switches>
>> Hardware stores sell them.
>
> Yes, but the ones around here want more money that I'm prepared to pay.

We get them used.

> . ,-./\
> . / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
> . \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
> . v
>
>
> -----------------------
> BasicLinux mailing list
> -----------------------
> http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/baslinux/
> ------------------------------------
> To exit, send subject=unsubscribe to
> baslinux-***@lists.ibiblio.org
>

***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

[Greg Mayman]

On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:38:46 +1100, Ron Clarke wrote:

> Hi Greg,

> On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 12:20:00 +0000
> Greg Mayman <***@tpg.com.au> wrote:

>> Now I've downloaded all my mail with sylpheed, I can't transfer the messages
>> over to Arachne to answer them with a half-way sensible editor!!!!!!!!!

> Yes you can, if that would be a help. :)

I certainly would, at least until I can get some documentation on
sylpheed and its weird editor, so I can learn a bit more about it.

> At the commandline, using mc, go into the inbox directory. there you will see
> files called: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc..
> They are all email messages as ascii text.
> Using the second panel of mc, navigate to your Arachne directory (e.g.
> c:\arachne\mail) and copy the files over. Rename the copied files in
> arachne\mail by giving each of them an extension of: .cnm
> Now call up Arachne and look at your inbox.

Thanks. I'll try that.



. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v

[Greg Mayman]

On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:30:42 +1100, Ron Clarke wrote:

> I have been in a similar position - in fact I still have four pay-by-the-hour
> ISP accounts each with several email addresses. So, in practice, I use only the
> paid-for by the month ISP to log on to the internet, but I can access each and
> every one of my other email accounts (by POP3/SMTP) from the one connection,
> both in DOS (Arachne) and in BasicLinux (Sylpheed).

That's a technique I have wanted to use with Arachne, but I couldn't see
how to to work it. With sylpheed, it is obvious how to do it.

> That way I don't use up any extra hours that I would have to pay for, but I can
> still make full use of the various mail servers.

Exactly!



. ,-./\
. / \ from Greg Mayman, in Adelaide, South Australia
. \_,-*_/ "Queen City of The South" 34:55 S 138:36 E
. v